interesting question: what if there is no bonding between ground and neutral? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


Like Tree23Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-28-2016, 12:07 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: canada
Posts: 270
Rewards Points: 540
Default interesting question: what if there is no bonding between ground and neutral?

we all know we need to bonding the ground and the neutral in the system, either inside the transformer or at the first service point, in this way, the ground can use the bonding point then return to the transformer as a loop

an interesting question is what if there is no bonding between ground and neutral, then the ground can return to the transformer, then there is no complete loop

in this situation, if the ground touch the hot, what will happen? ground fault, short circuit?

don't forget there is no complete loop of the ground
mike883 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-28-2016, 12:10 PM   #2
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,885
Rewards Points: 1,360
Default

All the toilets in the building begin swirling the other direction.
RePhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RePhase277 For This Useful Post:
Bad Electrician (05-28-2016), Jlarson (05-29-2016)
Old 05-28-2016, 01:15 PM   #3
MTW
Senior Member
 
MTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 14,814
Rewards Points: 8,784
Default

If the ground is not connected back to the source somehow (via the neutral), then there is no fault path back to the source. In the event of a fault, the ground would then simply float with a lethal voltage on it until someone gets shocked and notices it, or something much worse happens.
backstay, emtnut and Majewski like this.
MTW is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MTW For This Useful Post:
mike883 (05-28-2016), samgregger (05-28-2016)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-28-2016, 04:47 PM   #4
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

Muder death kill. Complete anarchy....unless you never ever touch it or metal connected to it.
backstay and emtnut like this.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 04:48 PM   #5
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
All the toilets in the building begin swirling the other direction.
Also this, like in the Simpsons.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 05:10 PM   #6
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,153
Rewards Points: 16,665
Default

Whatever the you do, don't push the doorbell button. It is a danger beyond belief, a two wire and no ground hazard. Remember it only takes .006 amps of stray current to fib the heart muscle. All them current and past code panel members should be shot and then tossed into prison for allowing this tragedy to continue.
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 06:35 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 5,467
Rewards Points: 3,032
Default

That ground rod is to return a lineside transient back to the POCO and keep it out of your house. Open that connection and you your house starts smoking.
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS Timers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(833) GPS-TIME
MikeFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 06:38 PM   #8
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,153
Rewards Points: 16,665
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFL View Post
That ground rod is to return a lineside transient back to the POCO and keep it out of your house. Open that connection and you your house starts smoking.
Gee I'm sorry to tell you this but electricity follows all paths back to the source. I don't agree with you're statement.
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 08:06 PM   #9
Band Member
 
emtnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 5,857
Rewards Points: 1,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike883 View Post
we all know we need to bonding the ground and the neutral in the system, either inside the transformer or at the first service point, in this way, the ground can use the bonding point then return to the transformer as a loop

an interesting question is what if there is no bonding between ground and neutral, then the ground can return to the transformer, then there is no complete loop
Do you mean the ground can't return to the Tx ?

in this situation, if the ground touch the hot, what will happen? ground fault, short circuit?

don't forget there is no complete loop of the ground
Apart from the earth ?


What do you think would happen ?

Would some current make it back to the Tx ?
Is the soil moist/do we know the resistance of the ground ?
Are there ground rods at the service AND the Tx ?
What voltage are we talking about ?
You mentioned ground fault .... Is this an ungrounded system ?
__________________
_____________________________________
Your Mother was a hamster, and your father smells of Elderberries. ... Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
emtnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 08:49 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
sbrn33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: middle america
Posts: 11,473
Rewards Points: 3,348
Default

Once again, a decent question from the OP and a bunch of asshole responses from the supposedly "smart" guys.
hardworkingstiff likes this.
sbrn33 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sbrn33 For This Useful Post:
jr360 (05-29-2016)
Old 05-28-2016, 09:00 PM   #11
Donuts > Fried Eggs
 
Big John's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland
Posts: 17,054
Rewards Points: 300
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFL View Post
That ground rod is to return a lineside transient back to the POCO and keep it out of your house. Open that connection and you your house starts smoking.
Eh? Utility already grounds their trannys. Opening the customer ground doesn't change how the transformer operates, it just increases the local neutral-earth potential.

Even if it were to completely float an ungrounded system isn't gonna automatically smoke anything.
macmikeman and emtnut like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Always wear your gloves.
Big John is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 09:19 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
spinninwheels's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: BC
Posts: 578
Rewards Points: 1,103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike883 View Post
we all know we need to bonding the ground and the neutral in the system, either inside the transformer or at the first service point, in this way, the ground can use the bonding point then return to the transformer as a loop

an interesting question is what if there is no bonding between ground and neutral, then the ground can return to the transformer, then there is no complete loop

in this situation, if the ground touch the hot, what will happen? ground fault, short circuit?

don't forget there is no complete loop of the ground
So I presume this is a grounded system that has had the grounding conductor disconnected from the xo in the xfmr, or disconnected from the grounded conductor in the main panel. Yes?

Is the bonding system still complete to the neutral bus in the main panel, or the xo still connected to the bonding system?

When you say the ground touches the hot, do you mean the bonding conductor, or part of the bonded system; or do you mean the grounding conductor?

I remember when I was in school, and the instructors would always give these scenarios of possibly faults, and shock potential hazards.
__________________
life is a wild adventure or nothing - helen keller
spinninwheels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 09:50 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 5,467
Rewards Points: 3,032
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big John View Post
Eh? Utility already grounds their trannys. Opening the customer ground doesn't change how the transformer operates, it just increases the local neutral-earth potential.

Even if it were to completely float an ungrounded system isn't gonna automatically smoke anything.
I don't see the word transformer in my post.
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS Timers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(833) GPS-TIME
MikeFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 09:57 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 5,467
Rewards Points: 3,032
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
Gee I'm sorry to tell you this but electricity follows all paths back to the source. I don't agree with you're statement.
Pretty bizarre interpretation there Pineapple.

Where in my post did I say it's the only path? The noodle is the primary path. A basic DC circuit shows us electricity takes all paths.
So where's your magic?
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS Timers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(833) GPS-TIME
MikeFL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 10:06 PM   #15
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,153
Rewards Points: 16,665
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFL View Post
A neutral conductor is to return a lineside transient back to the POCO and keep it out of your house. Open that connection and you your house starts smoking.
There will be multiple paths back to the poco and each will carry current according to its impedance, ground being one path provided the voltage is high enough to overcome impedance of earth. . If an ungrounded line conductor is delivering the surge it will follow all connected loads throughout the building and return on the neutral conductor (smoking the house in the process as it were...). If there is a good quality grounding system it will also deliver a portion of the current at elevated voltage thru the earth if the voltage is high enough to overcome the impedance of the earth medium. If there is metal water piping connected to the service neutral , that path also will deliver current back to the poco thru the other connected neutral wires of closeby connected electrical services.
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 10:09 PM   #16
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,153
Rewards Points: 16,665
Default

And since you call me pineapple, may I in return call you gladiolus flower?
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 10:17 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Bad Electrician's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: I Moved, VA
Posts: 4,154
Rewards Points: 4,969
Default

If there is no neutral ground bond, assuming there is no utility grounded neutral such as in a SDS

You have an ungrounded system.

So the first fault is free. Fault to ground on A phase and you have a grounded A phase no harm no foul. Seen it done several times by hacks.

A-Gnd 0 VAC
B-Gnd 208
C-Gnd 208
A-N 120
B-N 120
C-N 120
A-B 208
B-C 208
C-A 208

If there is no fault the voltage to ground floats based on the impedance of the loads.
__________________
I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth.
Bad Electrician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 10:25 PM   #18
MTW
Senior Member
 
MTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 14,814
Rewards Points: 8,784
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Electrician View Post
If there is no neutral ground bond, assuming there is no utility grounded neutral such as in a SDS

You have an ungrounded system.

So the first fault is free. Fault to ground on A phase and you have a grounded A phase no harm no foul. Seen it done several times by hacks.

A-Gnd 0 VAC
B-Gnd 208
C-Gnd 208
A-N 120
B-N 120
C-N 120
A-B 208
B-C 208
C-A 208

If there is no fault the voltage to ground floats based on the impedance of the loads.
I don't think the OP is talking about a genuine ungrounded system, I think he's talking about having a grounded system but not bonding the neutral and ground together.
MTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 10:51 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Bad Electrician's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: I Moved, VA
Posts: 4,154
Rewards Points: 4,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTW View Post
I don't think the OP is talking about a genuine ungrounded system, I think he's talking about having a grounded system but not bonding the neutral and ground together.
Assuming no metallic connection between the main service and the utility transformer the same would apply.
__________________
I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth.
Bad Electrician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2016, 11:04 PM   #20
MTW
Senior Member
 
MTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 14,814
Rewards Points: 8,784
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Electrician View Post
Assuming no metallic connection between the main service and the utility transformer the same would apply.
MTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
bond the ground conductor with the neutral conductor problem mike883 General Electrical Discussion 14 05-27-2016 12:21 PM
Ground fault, ship dwong General Electrical Discussion 0 05-22-2016 01:44 PM
Phantom Voltage? touchtester Residential Electrical Forum 9 04-25-2016 09:20 PM
not your normal neutral question Elec tricka Services and Service Equipment 15 04-15-2016 02:38 PM
Neutral required to be ran to generator? lynes.nathan Canadian Electrical Forum 7 03-01-2016 09:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com