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Old 01-29-2015, 07:46 AM   #21
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Has anyone used the LED retrofit bulbs that fit into the existing MH fixture? I never used them, just heard about them. I think the driver is built into the bulb. I big plus of LED's, in my opinion, is the savings in energy, and the savings in cooling costs. Compare the heat output of a 6 bulb T5HO fixture to an equivalent LED fixture.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:37 AM   #22
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I have a prediction. Inside of ten years Electric Light will get hired by another lighting manufacturer, probably one that pushes led lights, and he will be touting the benefits of led lights , and will be equally informative of all the good things about them , just like how he presently is regarding fluorescent lights.
Nothing personal, just a prediction.








.... Probably under a different user name......
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:28 AM   #23
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There is good information here.


IMHO, LED's are simply not ready for prime time for large areas with high ceilings. They are iffy for offices because there are so many upstarts in the business that have no track record. Many of the "claims" for this and that are dubious at best and based on incomplete information at best. Plus what you can buy today is obsolete next year and when LED's fail in one or more fixtures you cannot replace them with similar fixtures.

At best, LED's may 'look' good initially but only time will tell - and time is a harsh master.

T5HO lamps are a proven product and can be bought with lifetimes as good as claimed by LED's. The present electronic ballasts are also proven, which is way more than I can say about the LED drivers.

Consider the services of an experienced consulting engineer. Depending on you local AHJ, you may require stamped drawings as well.

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Old 01-29-2015, 05:48 PM   #24
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Stick to the proven winner.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendon View Post
Has anyone used the LED retrofit bulbs that fit into the existing MH fixture? I never used them, just heard about them. I think the driver is built into the bulb. I big plus of LED's, in my opinion, is the savings in energy, and the savings in cooling costs. Compare the heat output of a 6 bulb T5HO fixture to an equivalent LED fixture.
I have done a few of these retro fits. All the ones I done so far have a separate driver than the lamp. I have done some 75w and 100w conversions. The 75w driver was the size of a normal ballast and was kind of a pain as the fixtures were a remote ballast and we needed to figure out a way to get the leads on the load side fed. The 100w drivers were the size of a 4 pin ballast. Not as bad as the other but still kind of a pain as there were no good places to mount the driver in the fixture and ended up having to drive some self tappers through the top and sealing with silicone. One thing that I'm not a fan of is the LEDs are heavier than the old lamps and can cause the socket support to sag a little. As for cooling on the LEDs they had low volt computer fans mounted above the heat sinks to help out.
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Old 01-31-2015, 02:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendon View Post
Has anyone used the LED retrofit bulbs that fit into the existing MH fixture? I never used them, just heard about them. I think the driver is built into the bulb. I big plus of LED's, in my opinion, is the savings in energy, and the savings in cooling costs. Compare the heat output of a 6 bulb T5HO fixture to an equivalent LED fixture.
That's what LED retrofit service sales rep says. It would be about the same, because getting much above 80 LPW maintained and delivered from a 2' x 4' size 26,000 output lumen fixture is not easy. LED fixtures make the most heat at the fixture, because they reject the least as IR and requires the most cooling by heat sink. You need about 320W with premium T5 lamps and 90% reflector to get that output. LED luminaires using pcLED solid state fluorescent technology that deliver substantially less is not equivalent.

https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/D...9cc2aed317.pdf


FLIR pictures used in LED sales presentations are not relevant. You can get a 25W incandescent lamp much hotter than a 300W LED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
There is good information here. IMHO, LED's are simply not ready for prime time for large areas with high ceilings. They are iffy for offices because there are so many upstarts in the business that have no track record. Many of the "claims" for this and that are dubious at best and based on incomplete information at best. Plus what you can buy today is obsolete next year and when LED's fail in one or more fixtures you cannot replace them with similar fixtures.
Exactly.

Quote:
At best, LED's may 'look' good initially but only time will tell - and time is a harsh master.
Yep, and labor is expensive. To back up the superiority claim over with a warranty would be expensive and upstarts can't afford to buy a policy to insure the warranty(insurance company picks up the cost to honor the remainder of warranty if the company goes out of business)

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Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
T5HO lamps are a proven product and can be bought with lifetimes as good as claimed by LED's. The present electronic ballasts are also proven, which is way more than I can say about the LED drivers.
And ballasts manufacturers would be losing money if they were having too many warranty labor allowance claims. Avoid those means making reliable products.

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Originally Posted by icdubois View Post
I have done a few of these retro fits. All the ones I done so far have a separate driver than the lamp. I have done some 75w and 100w conversions. The 75w driver was the size of a normal ballast and was kind of a pain as the fixtures were a remote ballast and we needed to figure out a way to get the leads on the load side fed. The 100w drivers were the size of a 4 pin ballast. Not as bad as the other but still kind of a pain as there were no good places to mount the driver in the fixture and ended up having to drive some self tappers through the top and sealing with silicone.
Service replacements on fluorescent ballasts do not require exact model number match. You have a better chance of finding a usable T5HO or T8 ballast in the dumpster behind a supply house within some bent-up fixtures than the required exact replacement LED driver in their regional warehouse.

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One thing that I'm not a fan of is the LEDs are heavier than the old lamps and can cause the socket support to sag a little. As for cooling on the LEDs they had low volt computer fans mounted above the heat sinks to help out.
moving parts in a light fixture? it's more thing to go wrong, and it's another thing that has to be covered under warranty, parts and labor
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Last edited by Electric_Light; 01-31-2015 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:24 AM   #27
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You mean bell shaped? How high up?
T5HO or T8 fluorescent is a better choice than LEDs but you have a constraint on keeping the original shape?

MHs lose the most light output(~50%)
LEDs are the next (~30%)
Fluorescent (~10%)

So, fluorescent requires the least over sizing.
You always come on here like a lightbulb hating candlemaker.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:23 PM   #28
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You always come on here like a lightbulb hating candlemaker.
I catch flak from you but you haven't pointed out to me where I was wrong or offered counter points as I have done about LE Decorations Did you find my post you just replied to is wrong? Bring it on.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:28 PM   #29
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I catch flak from you but you haven't pointed out to me where I was wrong or offered counter points as I have done about LE Decorations Did you find my post you just replied to is wrong? Bring it on.
I will be having to inform all my happy and satisfied customers that the led light fixtures I have installed outside of their homes and they love and rave about are bad bad bad because Electric Light says they are.
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Old 01-31-2015, 05:08 PM   #30
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Lithonia is one of the leading brands. Comparing likes and expectations of 40-50% power reduction...

Lithonia 4xT5HO is $100-120, + $10-12ea for lamp. So, $150/ea give or take with quality light. It's exactly the same light quality as new business offices and classrooms. The CRI value is 80-86.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-...4-MV/202838871


The 18,000 lumen LED theoretically gets you maybe 10% better maintained lumens, but it's $600-700 each for the 70 CRI model. This is meant to match the color rendition quality of parking garage, warehouse and industrial facility metal halide lamps.

http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/...sheets/ibl.pdf

DO NOT calculate PBP and ROI for LED based on the existing HIDs.
Calculate them for T5HO first.

You need to factor in that T5HOs can be turned off and turned back on without a starting delay. So, do not let LED salesman double dip this for ROI figures.

So, comparing T5HO's 2.64kW x hours to IBL LED's 2.4kW x hours, the added $6,000 or so in material cost needs to be justified. You need to evaluate the cash flow, time value and what the organization can do for whatever purpose it exists for with $6,000 instead of selecting a luxury light fixture. If you're going to make payments, the added cost of taking on an additional loan amount needs to be considered at realistic interest rate.

An LED dealer will probably quote higher than the price I listed above especially.

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I will be having to inform all my happy and satisfied customers that the led light fixtures I have installed outside of their homes and they love and rave about are bad bad bad because Electric Light says they are.
They're reasonable and affordable for wall packs. They historically have low fixture efficiency and the required lumen levels are not low making LEDs affordable.

But in this thread, we are talking about high-bays. Perhaps you should get in touch with the thread starter and sell him the LED fixtures I mentioned above with initial price comparable to the initial price they can get from three competitive bids on T5HO setup?

You are to take care of every fried fixtures during expected life.

Next payment due in the amount comparable to competitive bid price to relamp their 48 lamps in 12 fixtures with the same long life T5 scheduled 3-6 months in advance after 30,000 hours of use. This payment to recurring every 30,000 hours as long as all the fixtures remain functional and within specs. Just think of "would be" competitive bid re-lamp price that you'll get paid every 7-8 years as long as the fixtures are working and maintaining what T5HO would be expected to provide.

(fair life for 45,000/3 hr lamps relamped at 70% https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/D...28e8d74883.pdf )

Sounds fair?
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Old 02-01-2015, 09:57 PM   #31
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All the big oil companies up here are using LED for interior/exterior lights and HPS for areas that don't need good CRI.



These are made by Cooper and they fail one diode at a time and the larger fixtures have 32 LEDs
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:13 PM   #32
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All the big oil companies up here are using LED for interior/exterior lights
Are they running on generator power?

BC Hydro is one of the cheapest kWh store in developed nations.

Power companies actually love data centers and inefficient night time lights. Steady, predictable continuous revenue... and steady predictable off peak revenue.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:18 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
Are they running on generator power?



BC Hydro is one of the cheapest kWh store in developed nations.

That particular picture had 7 1.1 MW generators but other sites have been on Alberta power.


This was from a mine mill where we supplied t5HO fixtures which provided lots of light. But changing the bulbs is gonna be a huge pain for whomever does it.

We did I the conveyor lines with LEDs because we could load up the circuits.

Last edited by BlackHowling; 02-01-2015 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
Are they running on generator power?

BC Hydro is one of the cheapest kWh store in developed nations.

Power companies actually love data centers and inefficient night time lights. Steady, predictable continuous revenue... and steady predictable off peak revenue.
Why is there this huge push to change nighttime usage lighting to energy efficient lighting like LED? They are reducing off peak demand, which is exactly opposite of what should be taking place. If anything, we should be lighting everything outside with 500 watt quartz lights. That has never made sense to me, other than it's being pushed by the "green" agenda.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:30 PM   #35
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Why is there this huge push to change nighttime usage lighting to energy efficient lighting like LED? They are reducing off peak demand, which is exactly opposite of what should be taking place. If anything, we should be lighting everything outside with 500 watt quartz lights. That has never made sense to me, other than it's being pushed by the "green" agenda.
LEDs increase heating bill in the heating season. BC Hydro's power is so cheap that electric furnaces are quite popular there. But reduction in off peak revenue gives them a reason to to seek rate raise during peak hours and meter charge across the line
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:59 PM   #36
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We have a welding pit where I work, about 65' x 45', maybe 25' deep, always had terrible lighting. I ran some pipe and installed 8 LED wall mount wide floods, Acuity(lithonia), about $550 each, had to make my own mounts so light are adjustable up/down, left/right. They make all other lighting seem like a joke, at 1/3 the conumption. Now everybody wants these, we'll never go back. Been about 3 months in a pretty tough environment, all good so far.
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Old 02-02-2015, 12:54 AM   #37
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We have a welding pit where I work, about 65' x 45', maybe 25' deep, always had terrible lighting. I ran some pipe and installed 8 LED wall mount wide floods, Acuity(lithonia), about $550 each, had to make my own mounts so light are adjustable up/down, left/right. They make all other lighting seem like a joke, at 1/3 the conumption. Now everybody wants these, we'll never go back. Been about 3 months in a pretty tough environment, all good so far.
You added lights. So I think even halogen would've been a great improvement to "before". I'd expect even halogen to outlive 3 months unless they're on 24/7.
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:45 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Electric_Light View Post
That's what LED retrofit service sales rep says. It would be about the same, because getting much above 80 LPW maintained and delivered from a 2' x 4' size 26,000 output lumen fixture is not easy. LED fixtures make the most heat at the fixture, because they reject the least as IR and requires the most cooling by heat sink. You need about 320W with premium T5 lamps and 90% reflector to get that output. LED luminaires using pcLED solid state fluorescent technology that deliver substantially less is not equivalent.

https://assets.sylvania.com/assets/D...9cc2aed317.pdf


FLIR pictures used in LED sales presentations are not relevant. You can get a 25W incandescent lamp much hotter than a 300W LED.


Exactly.


Yep, and labor is expensive. To back up the superiority claim over with a warranty would be expensive and upstarts can't afford to buy a policy to insure the warranty(insurance company picks up the cost to honor the remainder of warranty if the company goes out of business)


And ballasts manufacturers would be losing money if they were having too many warranty labor allowance claims. Avoid those means making reliable products.



Service replacements on fluorescent ballasts do not require exact model number match. You have a better chance of finding a usable T5HO or T8 ballast in the dumpster behind a supply house within some bent-up fixtures than the required exact replacement LED driver in their regional warehouse.


moving parts in a light fixture? it's more thing to go wrong, and it's another thing that has to be covered under warranty, parts and labor
Where do you find a 2' x 4' MH fixture?

When do you suppose Sylvania is going to go out of business?

I recently replaced all the ballasts in a bunch of T5 fixtures. Not
an easy job when the wiring to the new ballasts was different than
the originals.............
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Old 02-02-2015, 07:53 AM   #39
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LEDs increase heating bill in the heating season. BC Hydro's power is so cheap that electric furnaces are quite popular there. But reduction in off peak revenue gives them a reason to to seek rate raise during peak hours and meter charge across the line
Now that was typical salesman-speak. How do LED's increase your heating bill? If it's an issue, plug in an electric heater that will put off the same btu as your missing incandescents and the problem will disappear.
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Old 02-02-2015, 03:00 PM   #40
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Where do you find a 2' x 4' MH fixture?
I didn't mean 2' x 4' as in getting it to fit into a ceiling tile. I used it as an arbitrary size constraint, because that's about the reasonable size limit. 8 foot T8 lamps are even more efficient, but we don't even consider this as F96T8 x 6 fixture would not be practical.

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When do you suppose Sylvania is going to go out of business?
What do you mean by "out"? Their consumer light emitting decoration products aren't made by them. They are/some... at least are rebadged stuff.

I think the SYLVANIA logo will live on for a long time. The underscore W logo still lives on too. Some Indian company owns the SYLVANIA badge for most places outside of North America.

Quote:
I recently replaced all the ballasts in a bunch of T5 fixtures. Not
an easy job when the wiring to the new ballasts was different than
the originals.............
Which is why maintenance guys shouldn't do it. Lamps are directly compatible unlike LED retromangle kits which make the sockets incompatible with competitor products or FL lamps.

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Originally Posted by wendon View Post
Now that was typical salesman-speak.
No, it was a sarcasm directed at LED lighting used in BC, Canada.

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How do LED's increase your heating bill? If it's an issue, plug in an electric heater that will put off the same btu as your missing incandescents and the problem will disappear.
Electric furnace will run a bit longer. People use them there. That's how cheap BC Hydro's electricity is.
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