Lockout of Peripheral Power Sources - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2015, 03:31 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
al_smelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The very tip of Lake Michigan
Posts: 434
Rewards Points: 526
Default Lockout of Peripheral Power Sources

One of my first tasks at this new gig is to lead the annual update for lockout/ tagout procedures. This is a foundry and machine shop. It is rich with large reamers, 60 and 80 inch CNC mills, and huge grinders. A good exercise for a new manager. Anyway...

A question has arisen concerning peripheral power sources; specifically convenience receptacles attached to the machines for task lighting. It's been my experience that convenience receptacles do not constitute the machine proper. Locking or not locking them will have no bearing on a safe, zero state machine. In fact, having hot receptacles would be a bonus for working on or in the machine, as in no extension cords to string and functioning lighting! However...

A couple of opinions are that everything on or near the machine should be de-energized and locked, regardless of what it is or where it comes from. I cannot seem to find an OSHA interpretation of the standard, if there is one.

Does anyone have proof one way or another for peripheral power on a given machine when that power does not affect the machine operation? I'm not looking for opinions; everyone will certainly have one. I need black and white. I am amazed that this isn't on top of the OSHA interpretations list, but I also may not be the most efficient searcher either.

Anyone?

Thanks,
Mark
al_smelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-10-2015, 03:37 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
NC Plc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Nationwide
Posts: 3,529
Rewards Points: 7,888
Default

For the company I work for, the official policy is that all potential sources of energy going to a piece of equipment must be locked out before work on the equipment begins.

It doesn't matter if it is a 120v receptacle branch circuit, 480 main for the equipment, an air line that goes to the equipment, etc. I can't really recall if that's OSHA or just the company I work for going above and beyond.

I would assume, though, that if it's supplying electricity to the equipment it has to be locked out if it is at all possible to complete the repair without it.
__________________
I would rather ask a seemingly stupid question than not ask it and make a stupid mistake.
NC Plc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2015, 04:15 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
JRaef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 5,082
Rewards Points: 2,048
Default

I don't think you can apply OSHA rules so specifically. What they generally say is that the machine must be safe for whomever is working on it, regardless of what they are doing. So if you have a convenience outlet on the outside of the electrical control panel that is powered from a different source, that may be safe for the mechanic because it has no connection to the main power for the machine, but what about the electrician who opens the enclosure, ASSuming all power is off?

On the other hand if the power source for the receptacle is COMPLETELY separated, as in dedicated conduit for it, I see no difference in that and if it were mounted to the wall next to the machine. In most facilities I have worked at, there was always a convenience outlet fort drop lights etc., right next to each machine. One place had a rule: no extension cords or drop light cords longer than 12 ft. and no daisy chaining, which necessitated a LOT of convenience outlets. But those receptacles were on the wall not on the machine. Still, if the source is not exposed when the enclosure door is opened, I don't see the difference.

But for "hard evidence", look for 1910.147(a)(2)(iii)(A), which is an exception for LO/TO requirements having to do with maintenance tasks using cord connected equipment.
__________________
"If you don't know where you're going, then any direction will do." -- Lewis Carroll
JRaef is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-10-2015, 04:24 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Bad Electrician's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: I Moved, VA
Posts: 4,154
Rewards Points: 4,969
Default

Depending on what you are going to do, for us not having 120 VAC power is a hindrance.

Power on or off, we should be checking for power, having said that we also like to see signage stating that on the equipment and on or near the receptacles.
__________________
I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth.
Bad Electrician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2015, 04:31 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 13,816
Rewards Points: 25,878
Default

I don't think a rule -- such as requested by the OP -- could ever be drafted.

There is too much design variability... ultimately: what's IN ? what's OUT ?

That gets subjective right out of the gate.

JRaef's scheme is what one would expect.

If you want yours OSHA proof, lawsuit proof, that's the way to go.

As for your query -- you'll be wandering the streets like Diogenes. Break out your lantern.
telsa is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to telsa For This Useful Post:
Bad Electrician (08-10-2015)
Old 08-10-2015, 04:47 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
al_smelter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The very tip of Lake Michigan
Posts: 434
Rewards Points: 526
Default

All these receptacles have been added over the years, and originate in power panels scattered about. They have nothing in common with the machines. As mentioned by JRaef, they may as well be hung on the wall or mounted to strut bolted to the floor. That is also my take.

1910.147 refers over and over the UNEXPECTED startup or stored energy release of a machine. That it conspicuously makes no mention, even through interpretation letters, of outside, non related attached convenience power, leads me to believe that any regulation would be site specific.

That said, we are in between safety directors (go figure), so I'll have to make some determination, if only temporarily. I'll figure something out. OSHA doesn't care who does the audit, they only care that it gets done.
al_smelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2015, 04:50 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
pjholguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 497
Rewards Points: 477
Default

Have you done a JHA for this tool? That would be a way of determining if the outlet creates a hazard when the tool is being worked on.
pjholguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2015, 07:32 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
JRaef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 5,082
Rewards Points: 2,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_smelter View Post
...
That said, we are in between safety directors (go figure), so I'll have to make some determination, if only temporarily. I'll figure something out. OSHA doesn't care who does the audit, they only care that it gets done.
Murphy's law dictates that WHATEVER direction you decide to go will be the opposite of what the new safety director will want...
__________________
"If you don't know where you're going, then any direction will do." -- Lewis Carroll
JRaef is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to JRaef For This Useful Post:
Bad Electrician (08-10-2015), pjholguin (08-11-2015), telsa (08-10-2015)
Old 08-10-2015, 10:33 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,866
Rewards Points: 2,184
Default

I worked on a large Carrier chiller that had a smaller breaker ahead of the main for a vaporizing heater ( on smaller equipment it would be known as a crankcase heater) . According to the HVAC guys it is not uncommon to find this on large chillers. We put a warning sign about this situation and everyone was happy.

LC
__________________
What tools do I need to carry? Use the NEC as your guide keep all your tools ACCESSABLE but keep your everyday tools READILY ACCESSABLE.
Lone Crapshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
lockout tagout gnuuser Workplace Safety 3 03-25-2014 01:03 AM
generator suppying loads from two seperate power sources captkirk General Electrical Discussion 19 03-17-2014 08:17 PM
Fluorescent light fixtures supplied from two (power) sources Redmond Canadian Electrical Forum 3 04-21-2012 04:59 PM
Switch lockout TDonlan Workplace Safety 6 07-18-2011 08:59 PM
Sources of Power brian john Off Topic (Non Trade) 10 11-24-2010 06:32 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com