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Old 06-30-2013, 01:00 PM   #21
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I'm treating LED lamps like I do all the new gadgets - iPhones, Xboxes, etc. I let the rest of the world deal with all the "brand new product" hiccups for a few years. All the failures, recalls, replacements, etc. By then most of the kinks are worked out and the product is great. Furthemore, at that point, usually there is another brand new product that has already rendered it obsolete, so the price drops significantly.

That's when I come in. I still have an iPhone that's already 3 generations out of date. I've got about 15 CFLs that I bought like 5 years ago that have moved from house to house with me and go in the lights that I most often use. After they get the whole LED lamp thing figured out and the industry settles down and we don't have products manufactured by fashion designers, then I will probably go in and snag a bunch
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:05 PM   #22
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I'm treating LED lamps like I do all the new gadgets - iPhones, Xboxes, etc. I let the rest of the world deal with all the "brand new product" hiccups for a few years.
Agreed. I have no interest in LED products right now, in using, installing or recommending them.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:09 PM   #23
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They are getting more and more popular though, I'm not sure when I'm gonna have to acknowledge the bugs have been worked out and make the switch, but I regularly see LED area and street lighting now.

Haven't noticed as much for indoor applications beyond display cases in stores, but maybe it's hiding in plain sight?
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:07 PM   #24
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Why is it a pain in the butt? It's a service call plus markup on the new dimmer.
Because people are never happy to pay twice on something they think I should have sold them in the first place... And I actually agree.

Lesson learned... Just sell the cfl/led/incandescent/halogen model to begin with. Eventually everyone will switch to LED.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:13 PM   #25
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They are getting more and more popular though, I'm not sure when I'm gonna have to acknowledge the bugs have been worked out and make the switch, but I regularly see LED area and street lighting now.

Haven't noticed as much for indoor applications beyond display cases in stores, but maybe it's hiding in plain sight?
LED tape for undercabinet lights is deeeaaddd sexy. I also saw LED tape installed in crown molding that was dropped down from the ceiling in an assisted living facility to act as night lights. It gave the hallways a gentle glow when the regular lights were off.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:16 PM   #26
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Because people are never happy to pay twice on something they think I should have sold them in the first place... And I actually agree.
I don't agree that I should have sold them the most expensive dimmer in the first place, if given the choice most of them would take the cheaper dimmer, IMO.

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Lesson learned... Just sell the cfl/led/incandescent/halogen model to begin with. Eventually everyone will switch to LED.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:27 PM   #27
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I don't agree that I should have sold them the most expensive dimmer in the first place, if given the choice most of them would take the cheaper dimmer, IMO.
Everyone runs their business differently. I don't advertise and work off good relations with customers and other contractors to get work by referral only.

It's not good relations to have to go back to my customers house a year or two later, swap out 20 of their dimmers with 20 of the led/cfl model, and charge them again. Then do I take their old dimmers and give them a credit or leave them with dimmers they have absolutely no use for. It's a sticky situation I just don't enjoy... But I'm not a greasy salesman.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:35 PM   #28
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Everyone runs their business differently. I don't advertise and work off good relations with customers and other contractors to get work by referral only.

It's not good relations to have to go back to my customers house a year or two later, swap out 20 of their dimmers with 20 of the led/cfl model, and charge them again. Then do I take their old dimmers and give them a credit or leave them with dimmers they have absolutely no use for. It's a sticky situation I just don't enjoy... But I'm not a greasy salesman.
Yeah, because anyone who doesn't install more expensive dimmers that the customer doesn't need is a greasy salesman

If you installed 20 dimmers in a house, the customer has to change a CRAPLOAD of bulbs to LED, that's going to be a big project and it's certainly a big house. Not something that they would be complaining about.

As LEDs become more prevalent I will be offering capable dimmers more often, but I assume most customers are still going to go with the cheaper option.

There's a lot of "what if's" in electric, have fun chasing them all down
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:47 PM   #29
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They're big houses and the bigger the house, the cheaper the customer. I have multimillionaires trying to get refunds on decora single pole and 3way switches when I swap them out for dimmers. I don't want the damn things and have no use, but they are persistent.

I'm pretty sure the regular maestros and the cfl/led maestros are the same price from my wholesaler.

Rich people are good about paying their bills, but they didn't get rich by just giving money away... They want to know the numbers on everything. That's why they cheap out on halogens bulbs during construction, then pay a bunch to switch to dimmers to save money, then pay even more to switch to LED bulbs, then have to pay more to switch to cfl/led dimmers. They aren't that happy about it all, but they pay the bill.

Leaves me feeling bad about it though..so I just do cfl/led dimmers how, there is no choice.
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Old 06-30-2013, 03:53 PM   #30
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I have multimillionaires trying to get refunds on decora single pole and 3way switches when I swap them out for dimmers.
Doesn't sound like the kind of customers you should want to have...


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Rich people are good about paying their bills, but they didn't get rich by just giving money away... They want to know the numbers on everything. That's why they cheap out on halogens bulbs during construction, then pay a bunch to switch to dimmers to save money, then pay even more to switch to LED bulbs, then have to pay more to switch to cfl/led dimmers. They aren't that happy about it all, but they pay the bill.

Leaves me feeling bad about it though..so I just do cfl/led dimmers how, there is no choice.
So you feel bad because your rich customers were being really cheap and not wanting to pay you to do the whole job up front, so you just throw in the more expensive dimmers...
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:23 PM   #31
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Agreed. I have no interest in LED products right now, in using, installing or recommending them.
I've installed plenty of LED products, especially for exterior applications. Those seem to do pretty well, though I've found they aren't quite as bright as the conversion tables usually suggest.

Also there are plenty of high quality products out there but they're pretty spendy. A year or two ago I redid the lighting in a 911 dispatch room with LED recessed lighting. Each operator/dispatch station has its own "zone" of dimmable LEDs. It turned out really well and they're very happy with it, and no issues to date.

For things like light bulbs or fluorescent tube replacements, though, there is still a lot of work to be done.

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They are getting more and more popular though, I'm not sure when I'm gonna have to acknowledge the bugs have been worked out and make the switch, but I regularly see LED area and street lighting now.

Haven't noticed as much for indoor applications beyond display cases in stores, but maybe it's hiding in plain sight?
This seems to be the trend I've seen as well. LEDs outdoors are pretty easy to sell despite the price (which isn't really all that terrible comparatively). How much a place can save on both power and maintenance costs (bulb & ballast replacement) over the course of, say, 10 years is kind of a no-brainer.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:27 PM   #32
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I've installed plenty of LED products, especially for exterior applications. Those seem to do pretty well, though I've found they aren't quite as bright as the conversion tables usually suggest.
I'll take that a step further. I think the LED comparisons are an outright fraud on par with AFCI's. But manufacturers would never bend the truth to sell a product, would they?
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:32 PM   #33
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I'll take that a step further. I think the LED comparisons are an outright fraud on par with AFCI's. But manufacturers would never bend the truth to sell a product, would they?
I couldn't argue with that but I don't know a whole lot about it either.

But all I know is that when I remove a 400 watt metal halide shoebox fixture and replace it with the "official" LED equivalent, it's a lot more dark there at night
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:33 PM   #34
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I couldn't argue with that but I don't know a whole lot about it either.

But all I know is that when I remove a 400 watt metal halide shoebox fixture and replace it with the "official" LED equivalent, it's a lot more dark there at night
That pretty much proves my assertion, doesn't it?
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:34 PM   #35
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That pretty much proves my assertion, doesn't it?
"It's a lot more dark" is certainly empirical scientific evidence
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:35 PM   #36
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That pretty much proves my assertion, doesn't it?
Yessir, I suppose it does.

I have done a few LED replacement jobs for exterior lighting and when taking the brightness thing into consideration and adjusting accordingly, they have turned out quite well.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:35 PM   #37
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"It's a lot more dark" is certainly empirical scientific evidence

I think you should stop latching onto my postings.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:36 PM   #38
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"It's a lot more dark" is certainly empirical scientific evidence


That's a good point. Maybe next time I do an LED conversion job I'll take the light meter with me and do some before & after readings out of curiosity.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:42 PM   #39
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That's a good point. Maybe next time I do an LED conversion job I'll take the light meter with me and do some before & after readings out of curiosity.

The difference is light output is attributed to photoptic/scotoptic lumens....whatever. But in laymen's terms, "It's not as bright" is a good enough explanation for me.
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Old 06-30-2013, 04:52 PM   #40
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I think what manufacturers and these groups think is adequate and what we are used to may be different things. I deal with housing and worry that the so called equivalent might produce significantly less than whats there now, next thing you know, some tenant is suing. Then again, what I have seen for gas stations that have converted, ones that I frequent locally look good and someone has done their homework. Looking at them at shows doesn't do it. I need to install some at my customers sites with proper photometrics done to gain some confidence. I sold a couple of led cans to the owner of the housing properties and he called me a few days later to tell me the one in the shower was awesome, so maybe we can sell some pole light replacements.
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