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Old 12-27-2018, 06:05 PM   #41
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Old 12-27-2018, 06:09 PM   #42
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I think some of you people are out of touch with reality.

Do you really think a homeowner cares about a shiny pipe versus PVC? Do you think they would ever notice how many couplings are used? Do you think anyone but an electrician or plumber would consider more couplings as some type of negative?

Recently I wired up a shed, I did it myself so the wires were not run very neatly according to what you guys would think. I don't flatten the romex down very well so there are twists, holes don't line up, and I staple like a Summer helper. Yet the customer loves it:

Pipe for outside jacuzzi / spa-screen-shot-2018-12-27-6.03.45-pm.jpg

If I posted pictures, most of you would tell me how shoddy it was, some of you would tell me that it should have been piped since it was all exposed. But the customer took time out of his day to thank me again and tell me how much he liked it.

The same with the garage in the OP, what you think is "better" due to trade etiquette is most likely not what the customer would think is better.
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Old 12-27-2018, 06:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
I think some of you people are out of touch with reality.

Do you really think a homeowner cares about a shiny pipe versus PVC? Do you think they would ever notice how many couplings are used? Do you think anyone but an electrician or plumber would consider more couplings as some type of negative?

Recently I wired up a shed, I did it myself so the wires were not run very neatly according to what you guys would think. I don't flatten the romex down very well so there are twists, holes don't line up, and I staple like a Summer helper. Yet the customer loves it:

Attachment 131062

If I posted pictures, most of you would tell me how shoddy it was, some of you would tell me that it should have been piped since it was all exposed. But the customer took time out of his day to thank me again and tell me how much he liked it.

The same with the garage in the OP, what you think is "better" due to trade etiquette is most likely not what the customer would think is better.
Hack!
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Old 12-27-2018, 06:26 PM   #44
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I would say nice conduit work is something almost everyone can appreciate and can really distinguish you from the competition.

Dicking around all day to save one or two couplings in EMT, and other really fine points, I agree you're doing that for yourself and bragging rights with other electricians, but not for the customer.

Lots of customers are clueless and there's really nobody to distinguish yourself from, as long as you wipe your feet and vacuum your dust, and everything works, they think you do excellent work.

But 95% of customers would look at my EMT next to that plastic mess in the garage and know who's the man.

And for the 5% that don't, I'll point it out for them, maybe a couple times.
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:20 PM   #45
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I was just wondering, rereading this thread, does the term "neat and workmanlike" still appear in the code book ?
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:54 PM   #46
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On the plus side, the cobbled together PVC abortion that Electrical "Artist" installed makes the existing surface work look all that much better.
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Old 12-27-2018, 09:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
I think some of you people are out of touch with reality.

Do you really think a homeowner cares about a shiny pipe versus PVC? Do you think they would ever notice how many couplings are used? Do you think anyone but an electrician or plumber would consider more couplings as some type of negative?

Recently I wired up a shed, I did it myself so the wires were not run very neatly according to what you guys would think. I don't flatten the romex down very well so there are twists, holes don't line up, and I staple like a Summer helper. Yet the customer loves it:

[ATTACH]131062[/ATTACH

If I posted pictures, most of you would tell me how shoddy it was, some of you would tell me that it should have been piped since it was all exposed. But the customer took time out of his day to thank me again and tell me how much he liked it.

The same with the garage in the OP, what you think is "better" due to trade etiquette is most likely not what the customer would think is better.
How much extra time does it take to make Romex neat? Seriously?

Most of us do it just out of habit. It takes no extra time unless youíre timing yourself by the second.
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Old 12-27-2018, 09:07 PM   #48
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I'm running emt all day. I'm completely referal based and my work shines on the hacky sack competition. With that being said I usually bend pipe once and if a coupling is needed to fix a mistake or a dog leg needs to be tweaked using leverage (on my bumper on my van) it's not a problem. I also offer customers options and show pictures of those methods. This way if they want it done cheap and fast I'm free of blame for"ugly work".

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Old 12-27-2018, 09:17 PM   #49
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I think @HackWork is correct, 90% of the people don’t know a good job from a crap job. However it is important to remember that a “crap” job still may be code compliant. Depending on who would have done that job for me, they maybe would either be retrained or disciplined, but in any case I likely would have had them remove it and do it over; at least I would have liked to hope that they would not have gotten that far in the first place and all would have been avoided.

Having said that, this is where @eddy current and @splatz I think are right in that there is also an opportunity to show your guys and your customer what “quality” work looks like. I don’t necessarily agree that EMT would be / is better than PVC, but I do think there is a different in how quickly each can be installed based on experience; both can make them look as good or as bad as the installer wants them to look like.

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Old 12-27-2018, 09:21 PM   #50
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I also offer customers options and show pictures of those methods. This way if they want it done cheap and fast I'm free of blame for"ugly work".
I don't believe that to be true... you cannot blame anyone else for your installation quality. And as @99cents mentioned, how much time does it take to do quality work? Quality work does not really cost more IMO. I would agree / argue that better quality materials cost more, but it takes the same amount of time and straps to hang a pipe crooked as it does straight.

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Old 12-27-2018, 09:28 PM   #51
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I don't believe that to be true... you cannot blame anyone else for your installation quality. And as @99cents mentioned, how much time does it take to do quality work? Quality work does not really cost more IMO. I would agree / argue that better quality materials cost more, but it takes the same amount of time and straps to hang a pipe crooked as it does straight.

Cheers
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By "ugly" I mean method of installation.
I'll make the pvc straight but I think it looks uglier and tends to sag when hanging on walls. This also usually will mean more straps to make it not sag. So my cheaper method (running pvc) would look professional but that would not be my method of choice. I also actually don't even offer pvc for exterior applications. I will give the options if I feel the customer is fielding bids or is on a budget or low income.

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Old 12-27-2018, 09:42 PM   #52
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Doing a nice job is usually the result of planning. Proper planning actually saves time and prevents do overs.

Of course, I will be the first to admit to screw ups and then spending extra time to make it look like I planned it that way .
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Old 12-27-2018, 10:51 PM   #53
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It's not a screw up if you can think of a reasonable reason why you did that way on purpose.
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:11 AM   #54
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I still say you people are insane.

You have to stop being followers and listening to other electricians opinions of what is right or better. The only thing that matters is the customers opinion, and that is your responsibility to handle.

Good ol' Hax is a trendsetter, a tastemaker, a thoughtleader. What Hax does is the best way, because that is what he sells to the customer.

That's the reason why I posted the test message, to show that the customer sees twisted romex thru uneven holes and half-ass stapling as "beautiful and professional". THAT is craftsmanship (opposed to 4 extra hours of conduit installation) because I said so, and therefore the customer said so.

In the end, the customer is not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being any better than unnoticeable romex in the OP's garage. Not if you sell it right. The same way as how they are not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being better than the factory bent PVC fittings and lack of offset.

This isn't finish carpentry where everyone can appreciate the "Craftsmanship". With electrical work, YOU decide and tell the customer what the best way is.
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Old 12-28-2018, 06:30 AM   #55
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@HackWork, I agree that you are a trendwetter and thoughtless leader, I always thought that about you. However I thought you were working in New Jersey not the deepest darkest jungles of Borneo where people have never seen Romex cables that are still flat, or a pipe that isn't Legoland level craftsmanship. In your native Borneo you can get away with a lot of things that we can't over here in civilization, people know the difference here.

You might be selling yourself short, if you show these people a lighter, you may be able to get them to elect you President King.

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Old 12-28-2018, 06:37 AM   #56
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@HackWork, I agree that you are a trendwetter and thoughtless leader, I always thought that about you.


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However I thought you were working in New Jersey not the deepest darkest jungles of Borneo where people have never seen Romex cables that are still flat, or a pipe that isn't Legoland level craftsmanship.
You're not listening.

They HAVE seen those things. But I educate them which is better.

You think that flat romex is "better", but I think twisted romex is better. And subsequently so does the customer.

Now that is an extreme example bordering on hyperbole and you know it. But it illustrates my point well. When electrician here say that PVC looks bad and too many couplings looks bad and not offsetting over 1 pipe looks bad, they seem to believe that. They don't realize that it doesn't look bad to the customer, especially not if you sell them on your work being the best way. Or, at least, it's the best way for the price they are willing to pay.

Quote:
In your native Borneo you can get away with a lot of things that we can't over here in civilization, people know the difference here.
That's not true, you just aren't as good of a salesman.

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Old 12-28-2018, 07:00 AM   #57
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Quote:
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@HackWork, I agree that you are a trendwetter and thoughtless leader, I always thought that about you.
Now stop that, you turn that frown upside down, you know I love you and I am just busting your chops

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That's not true, you just aren't as good of a salesman.
That's what I am saying, you're that good a salesman you are wasting your time installing hot tubs and car chargers, you should start a church on TV or something, go where the real money is!

(And in case you didn't notice - still just busting your chops! Please do not start a religion or cult. )
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:14 AM   #58
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(And in case you didn't notice - still just busting your chops! Please do not start a religion or cult. )
I aspire to one day lead a cult.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:48 AM   #59
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I still say you people are insane.

You have to stop being followers and listening to other electricians opinions of what is right or better. The only thing that matters is the customers opinion, and that is your responsibility to handle.

Good ol' Hax is a trendsetter, a tastemaker, a thoughtleader. What Hax does is the best way, because that is what he sells to the customer.

That's the reason why I posted the test message, to show that the customer sees twisted romex thru uneven holes and half-ass stapling as "beautiful and professional". THAT is craftsmanship (opposed to 4 extra hours of conduit installation) because I said so, and therefore the customer said so.

In the end, the customer is not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being any better than unnoticeable romex in the OP's garage. Not if you sell it right. The same way as how they are not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being better than the factory bent PVC fittings and lack of offset.

This isn't finish carpentry where everyone can appreciate the "Craftsmanship". With electrical work, YOU decide and tell the customer what the best way is.
It does not take 4 extra hours to install conduit straight, level and with proper bends. A good electrician can install it in the same time it took the OP to install the PVC in the pics.

Some customers are picky about craftsmanship and some are not. Some jobs require more craftsmanship than others as well.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
I still say you people are insane.

You have to stop being followers and listening to other electricians opinions of what is right or better. The only thing that matters is the customers opinion, and that is your responsibility to handle.

Good ol' Hax is a trendsetter, a tastemaker, a thoughtleader. What Hax does is the best way, because that is what he sells to the customer.

That's the reason why I posted the test message, to show that the customer sees twisted romex thru uneven holes and half-ass stapling as "beautiful and professional". THAT is craftsmanship (opposed to 4 extra hours of conduit installation) because I said so, and therefore the customer said so.

In the end, the customer is not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being any better than unnoticeable romex in the OP's garage. Not if you sell it right. The same way as how they are not going to see perfectly installed EMT as being better than the factory bent PVC fittings and lack of offset.

This isn't finish carpentry where everyone can appreciate the "Craftsmanship". With electrical work, YOU decide and tell the customer what the best way is.
Nobody said anything about running pipe in a shed except you.

One of the facts lost in this conversation is inspectors. Most of us here deal with inspectors (I know you avoid them). Inspectors, here at least, donít poke around and climb ladders to look at things unless you give them a reason. If your work is neat and professional, you get a walk by instead of an inquisition.

Inspections aside, I like to take pride in my work. If the customer is too dumb or inexperienced to recognize quality work, that means nothing to me. A good job is when I have satisfied both the customer and myself.
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