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View Poll Results: Underground install in PVC conduit, phase A + B one conduit phase C + N in other?
Yes, it is NEC compliant 15 30.00%
No, it is a NEC code violation 35 70.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-04-2013, 08:55 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
Uh, you are trying to compare an engineering program to a code book or reference book.

But again that has nothing to do with the OPs poll question.

Well yes most electrical engineering firms today use a program to do calculations thats what they do today .
But in your case you can use the old time pencil & paper calculations from the code book or uglys book since your jobs consist of one run of 3/0 and a sub panel in the back hallway of a mall store . LOL


Because the code says its legal and the power company wont thats why ill stick with them thats pretty clear and concise .

Look at the pole up top 29 to 14 thats what others think but wont comment because there scared of BBQ and Roger rabbit .
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:49 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by piperunner View Post
Well thanks Don all our work is designed by a electrical engineer outfit
we dont design or do load calculations we dont do current studies .
If you duct banks are not burning up, then I assume that they use Article 220 or something similar that results in greatly over sized conductors.

Quote:
Its all there design and its a program that you have to lease or sign a contract yearly to use it but its not your uglys book or NEC type of
calculations its a little bit more accurate to say the least .
Many of the electrical engineering programs do Article 220 load calculations. Many of those programs also do the calculations for duct bank conductor ampacity based on the information in Annex B.
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Bottom line is if the power company says no then its no good in my book i trust them more so then the NEC .
The power company has no say on the load side of the service point.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:44 AM   #163
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Jesus, I got a major headache reading pooprunner's posts.....what a rambling discourse and prime example of avoiding the OP question. Now I remember why he was on my ignore list...and is now back on it.

I agree, with BBQ and Roger, etc. that there is absolutely no problem doing what the OP describes, under the conditions of no metal being used.

Our POCO doesn't care and finds no issues with what the OP describes and the Code clearly allows.

Much ado about nothing.

Oh, and PR, I am not afraid of BBQ or Roger.....in fact BBQ and I have had some spirited debates.

EDIT: Crap, disregard my vote it was supposed to be Yes it is COMPLIANT...I misread the poll. Shouldn't vote after a long day at work. (Yes I had to work on Sunday.)

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Old 08-05-2013, 08:24 AM   #164
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I just told you guys why you just cant read try to read better does that happen a lot up north must be the cold .
Who could argue with that
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:19 AM   #165
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Gawd this hurts (not really) to agree with Bob aka BBQ, all others and the OP.

But I am having following trouble following why PR is so upset regarding this issue.

What do you see as the problem.

That you may see it as second class work is your problem (and that is fine), from an electrical stand point engineering or other and NEC stand point what are your main points.

Many times I dislike what others do and this falls back to the ground up, ground down, tape a wirenut don't tape wirenuts, it is a personal preference not a code or engineering proven issue.

Just looking for a short concise reason. No angst, no iron in the fire.

As to rebar in a duct bank and I have worked many tough spec's jobs, from government installation, hospitals to the federal government that loves tough specs, I can only think of one duct bank in 43 years that had rebar between the conduits.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:16 PM   #166
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Well one more time we all know what skin effect is with AC power . We all know what dc resistance is by the wire alone itself with no power applied .


Now there is something in addition to that which is not found in a buss bar or a solid single conductor . And it starts with a P which i said in my posts before which you cant understand . Read it


When you run multiple conductors together in a conduit same phase
its called uneven distortion of the eddy currents already inside that
single conductor which pushs the current flow out from center of conductor to the outer skin of the conductor thats skin effect AC resistance but distorted its not what happens with a single conductor . At high currents above 1000amps its effects are increased due to multiple common phase conductors .

The effects get better if resistance of long service feeders are run multiple same phases in each conduit it can effect trip time on breakers which results in longer time during a fault .


Increased heat beyond what normally would be less with all phases and neutral in a conduit . Insulation damage heat on connection points lugs equipment . Plus underground in PVC which now increases heat due to the expanding field more so with PVC .


Now in paralleled with multiple same phase conductors this increases and it distorts these eddy currents more so in some cases can create a hot spot the resistance is unevenly distributed among the multi paralleled conductors by the force of the magnetic field around the conductors . This is a force which actually makes each same phase conductor repel each other when run same phase same polarity opposes itself not a good plan folks .
Current is not the same in each conductor during loading or surges or faults .

Thats from the power company .

If thats not making sense your a idiot
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:41 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piperunner View Post
Well one more time we all know what skin effect is with AC power . We all know what dc resistance is by the wire alone itself with no power applied .


Now there is something in addition to that which is not found in a buss bar or a solid single conductor . And it starts with a P which i said in my posts before which you cant understand . Read it


When you run multiple conductors together in a conduit same phase
its called uneven distortion of the eddy currents already inside that
single conductor which pushs the current flow out from center of conductor to the outer skin of the conductor thats skin effect AC resistance but distorted its not what happens with a single conductor . At high currents above 1000amps its effects are increased due to multiple common phase conductors .

The effects get better if resistance of long service feeders are run multiple same phases in each conduit it can effect trip time on breakers which results in longer time during a fault .


Increased heat beyond what normally would be less with all phases and neutral in a conduit . Insulation damage heat on connection points lugs equipment . Plus in underground in PVC which now increases heat due to the expanding field more so with PVC .


Now in paralleled with multiple same phase conductors this increases and it distorts these eddy currents more so in some cases can create a hot spot the resistance is unevenly distributed among the multi paralleled conductors by the force of the magnetic field around the conductors . This is a force which actually makes each same phase conductor repel each other when run same phase same polarity opposes itself not a good plan folks .

Thats from the power company .

If thats not making sense your a idiot
you're*

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Old 08-05-2013, 08:43 PM   #168
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Thats from the power company .
No it is not.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:58 PM   #169
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Yes it is Proximity effect and with more current it gets worst.
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #170
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No it is not.
The local utility will run it this way when they are responsible for large service duct banks.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:55 AM   #171
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Well BBQ its from a engineers view of why not a rule . Yes the power company
has to approve the install in there transformer when it effects there
equipment .

You twist words and try and change what i said all the time i said i would ask a real electrical engineer because the forum cant understand this your one way NEC brothers. This photo is a typical paralleled bank stub up with rebar detailed by structural engineer so 90 percent your not running same phases in one conduit .

You need to read up on it maybe you will learn something .

Its like basic electric did you understand what i wrote or do we need spell check .

Mxslick i really dont read your stuff anyway so no loss here i could care less .
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