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Old 07-18-2019, 07:49 PM   #1
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Default Replacement Elevator Feeder, breaker and disconnect

I haven't sized anything like this since I took the test. Existing elevator is going to have its controller replaced and maybe part of the elevator itself as well. The new specs are for 208v three phase, run 127.3 amps, starting 299 amps. For reference, they gave 40hp, Letter G and 121 amps. I can't tell what the existing feeder is, but looking like #1 THW and a 110 amp FPE breaker. 200 amp disconnect. 1 1/4 conduit existing.
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:22 AM   #2
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Alright, since no one else wants to take a stab at it.

40hp at 208v is 114amps
Wire size at 1.25% = 1/0
Fuse size at 175% = 199 amps
Inverse breaker at 250% = 285 amps

So in your situation I would go with 200 amp breaker and fuses. With 1-1/4” EMT you will be slightly over on wire fill with [email protected] 1/0 and a #6 ground. Your only over by the ground because the three 1/0 will fit in 1-1/4” EMT. Maybe just use the EMT as ground? I’m sure if you had to pull a ground you’d get it. I guess getting a bare ground could be an option?

To bad they just don’t replace the whole elevator with a newer traction elevator. It would probably be a 40 amp circuit
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Old 07-19-2019, 07:32 AM   #3
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I was filling out the survey sheet confirming the voltage yesterday that it was in fact 208v three phase. I have to go back again this morning and check on the 120v lighting circuit which I'm sure is there. Where I am a little lost is that they are replacing the control cabinet which I would guess has overload protection built in? The work sheet calls for having a ground in the pipe which is fine. Existing has the conduit as the ground. I have a set of EMT shoes for the 555 so I may have to break that out. Not a particularly long run anyway.
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Old 07-19-2019, 12:36 PM   #4
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Drawings only go so far. Ideally, you will want to have a site visit with the elevator people prior to starting work. They have their own funny rules and way of doing things. They also know what to expect from the inspectors and those guys are truly from another planet.

Make sure you have slush money in your bid.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:27 PM   #5
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I'll definitely talk with elevator people before we get too far into it. At this point, it was just a confirmation of voltage type. May not be any bid, most of my work with them is T&M. I don't how much they are choosing to renovate other than the machine room gear. Looked at it again this morning and there is no straight shot from the panel to the disconnect. Lots of duct work to dodge. My main job is taking care of the tenant problems and is probably more important than this gig. If it looks like it'll be more than I care to deal with, they'll get someone who can park a crew and get it done quickly with no lost customer goodwill.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:17 PM   #6
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Nrp3 .,,

Just be aware with some elevator specs some will need a elevator disconnect switch type with shunt breaker in there so just be prepared for that in case they need to bring it up to current codes.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:53 PM   #7
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Both 99 and Frenchie nailed it, run an extra pipe too! They don't like to mix any circuits at all, period. and they usually want everything in a pipe, that included the telephone line.

If you go with it let those crazy erectors tell you where they want your stuff!

Since this is existing, whom is to do the refinishing around your work?

I've enjoyed working on several elevators, They really make them tight to the wall, on one job it was turning on/and off the pit as it raised and lowered.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:03 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Nrp3 .,,

Just be aware with some elevator specs some will need a elevator disconnect switch type with shunt breaker in there so just be prepared for that in case they need to bring it up to current codes.
The feed comes from a large frame FPE breaker now, so I don't know whether shunt frame FPE exists or not, though I'm sure I could put another in a breaker enclosure inline if I had too. At this point, it's really tough to tell what the scope of the work is.

The circuit for the elevator lighting, they want a single pole fusible disconnect in the mechanical room too, though thats not a big deal.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CADPoint View Post
Both 99 and Frenchie nailed it, run an extra pipe too! They don't like to mix any circuits at all, period. and they usually want everything in a pipe, that included the telephone line.

If you go with it let those crazy erectors tell you where they want your stuff!

Since this is existing, whom is to do the refinishing around your work?

I've enjoyed working on several elevators, They really make them tight to the wall, on one job it was turning on/and off the pit as it raised and lowered.
If by refinishing, you mean drywall, etc, the property management has all kinds of carpenters and maintenance guys, so fortunately when I do this kind of thing all I have to do is take a photo and give a location, and they come and repair the hole.
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Old 07-20-2019, 08:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
I'll definitely talk with elevator people before we get too far into it. At this point, it was just a confirmation of voltage type. May not be any bid, most of my work with them is T&M. I don't how much they are choosing to renovate other than the machine room gear. Looked at it again this morning and there is no straight shot from the panel to the disconnect. Lots of duct work to dodge. My main job is taking care of the tenant problems and is probably more important than this gig. If it looks like it'll be more than I care to deal with, they'll get someone who can park a crew and get it done quickly with no lost customer goodwill.
I think you should do it. If it’s T & M you get paid for the learning experience. Elevators could be a good niche to get into. I wish I could do more.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:01 PM   #11
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Check to see if the new one needs current limiting fuses or breaker.
You shouldn’t need to size your conductors at 125%, it’s not continuous duty.


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Old 07-20-2019, 02:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
The feed comes from a large frame FPE breaker now, so I don't know whether shunt frame FPE exists or not, though I'm sure I could put another in a breaker enclosure inline if I had too. At this point, it's really tough to tell what the scope of the work is.

The circuit for the elevator lighting, they want a single pole fusible disconnect in the mechanical room too, though thats not a big deal.
Not all under 225 A frame do have shunt trip that is typically a factory installed option but with FPE that is anyone guess depending on how old that breaker is.
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Old 07-20-2019, 03:14 PM   #13
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I fed an Otis rebuild some twenty-years ago. The originals had been replaced more than once. This was in the oldest high rise in down town Oakland, California. (1927) It even had newspapers of that date here and there in the inner structure of the building.

When they are being re-worked you proceed as if it's a new build. Virtually EVERYTHING is going to be tossed into the trash. That's the kind of standard that elevator crews work to. That's why no-one has died in an elevator in so long no-one can remember.

You haven't seen perfectionism until you've wired to an elevator.

BTW, in California, the elevator inspector is booked solid a month out -- and he spends the ENTIRE day inspecting the install. If ANYTHING is out of place, he'll come back -- in a MONTH.

And here, they are astoundingly picky. Such things as WHERE the OCPD is located -- it has to be so close to the door that a fireman can reach in -- while outside the room -- and throw the switch. It can't be behind the door under any circumstance. Flex will NOT do: Sealtite is required... and so forth.

The Otis crew knew I needed #4 feeders -- but for chits and giggles would not tell me so. Such behavior is the NORM. Be prepared to receive absolutely no help AT ALL from the elevator boys.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:17 PM   #14
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Yes there is a ton of specs that you need to build to. It hasn't been mentioned yet about the disconnect needing a set of contacts on the handle. They usually want to know the position of the disconnect. I know you need it on the ones that have batteries for lowering the car when the power is out, as opposed to the guy shutting it off to work on. For some reason I thought I needed it on ones without the battery lowering. Probably because those guys just want everything. Just like a dedicated receptacle circuit in the machine room. Those primadonnas can't share their power with nobody!


And "no smoking" on site doesn't apply to them either. They go into the shaft, close the door, and party in there till it's time to go home.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:01 PM   #15
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Some things I have had to do that were not on the drawings:

Service receptacles have to be GFCI and you can’t feed one off another. This includes the service receptacle by the controller which has to be dedicated. It doesn’t matter that it’s a dry, indoor location. There has to be lighting directly above the controller even if there’s adequate lighting without it.

I’m not saying these are rules (??) in your area but inspectors can make your life miserable.

If you can shut up and do as you’re told, though, there’s money in them.
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Old 07-20-2019, 10:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
I fed an Otis rebuild some twenty-years ago. The originals had been replaced more than once. This was in the oldest high rise in down town Oakland, California. (1927) It even had newspapers of that date here and there in the inner structure of the building.

When they are being re-worked you proceed as if it's a new build. Virtually EVERYTHING is going to be tossed into the trash. That's the kind of standard that elevator crews work to. That's why no-one has died in an elevator in so long no-one can remember.

You haven't seen perfectionism until you've wired to an elevator.

BTW, in California, the elevator inspector is booked solid a month out -- and he spends the ENTIRE day inspecting the install. If ANYTHING is out of place, he'll come back -- in a MONTH.

And here, they are astoundingly picky. Such things as WHERE the OCPD is located -- it has to be so close to the door that a fireman can reach in -- while outside the room -- and throw the switch. It can't be behind the door under any circumstance. Flex will NOT do: Sealtite is required... and so forth.

The Otis crew knew I needed #4 feeders -- but for chits and giggles would not tell me so. Such behavior is the NORM. Be prepared to receive absolutely no help AT ALL from the elevator boys.

I did one for Otis a few years ago, bunch a pricks.
I’ve only met one elevator installer I actually liked.



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Old 07-20-2019, 11:34 PM   #17
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An elevator guy didn’t like my location for the lower shaft switch and receptacle even though they were according to drawings. He told me to move them. I asked him to confirm the new location three times. He said yes three times. When he lowered the car, he crunched my EMT.

I invoiced the building owner for extras and told him to short pay the elevator guys. He paid me but didn’t want to upset the elevator guys.
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