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Old 04-18-2018, 04:25 PM   #1
fjm
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Default small welder

customer has lincoln 210 welder, wants a 240v circiut. Panel has a existing 10/3 for dryer not used close by garage where welder will go. Rated input is 15 amp(i think) welder comes with a cord which fits a 3w 50a 240v receptacle. Regardless of the connected load I would not be able to use the 10/3 because of table 210.21b3. Am I right? I gotta run 8/2 min because of receptacle.

https://www.harrisweldingsupplies.co...RoCys8QAvD_BwE
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:42 PM   #2
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It looks like a dual voltage unit.

Change the dryer circuit to 120V, 30A ?

It seems odd that the 240 wiring draws 27A while the 120 draws 21.5.


http://www.lincolnelectric.com/asset...3/imt10164.pdf

Never mind. I see that the output is reduced with the 120 V and that the customer wanted the 240V.

I got nothin

But, I'd go with a bigger circuit. My 120V welder need every bit of juice to function properly. Even a short, 14 gauge extension cord limits it's ability to function at 100%

Last edited by 220/221; 04-18-2018 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:45 PM   #3
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he would be limited if at 120v as far as welder capability. where did you see the draw i thought it was alot less
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
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he would be limited if at 120v as far as welder capability. where did you see the draw i thought it was alot less
The pdf link I posted
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:50 PM   #5
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looks like page 9 says 40 breaker with 12 wire..guess it works out with table in 630
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:01 PM   #6
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so looking at 630.11 Duty Cycle .55x27=15A. 12 wire 40 amp breaker correct .. so existing 10 would be good?
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:50 PM   #7
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You need the physical name plate on the unit. I just looked at the PDF you posted they have a name plate in there so I will use that information.

If it has I1Eff (effective current) listed you size the wire to no less than that value. If that is not given then you use the rated primary current with the duty cycle factor to size the conductors per 630.11(A).

This unit shows the nameplate in the PDF which has the I1Eff for 230V as 14.7A. So the MINIMUM size wire you can run is 14 AWG (unless the manufacturer instructions require larger). I will explain why you may want to run larger than that when I talk about OCPD sizing next.

For OCPD, you look at 630.12(A) AND (this becomes important because you must comply with BOTH) (B).

630.12(A) states the max OCPD value for the WELDER is 200% of I1Max. If I1Max is not given then it is 200% of the rated primary current of the welder. We have I1Max given of 27 amps, 200% of that is 54A which is not a standard size breaker. Normally you would be able to use the next standard size but because 630.12(A) says NOT MORE THAN 200% you may NOT do that so a 50A breaker is the maximum protection for the WELDER.

Now, 630.12(B) tells us about OCPD for the CONDUCTORS which states that the OCPD can be rated or set at NOT MORE THAN 200% of the conductor ampacity. So lets say you are using NM cable which has a rated ampacity of 15A, the largest breaker you may protect the conductors at is 30A.

Now, that may end up tripping if the welder is used heavily so I always recommend using the largest OCPD allowed which is 50A for the welder. So to do that and still comply with 630.12(B) our wire must be rated 25A minimum. This gives us 2 options, use a method like NM cable which is limited to the 60 degree column of Table 310.15(B)(16) (formerly Table 310.16) which means we would need 10 AWG, which is rated at 30A, at a minimum (12 AWG if you happen to be on 08 or prior).
If we use a wiring method like THHN in a raceway which we can use the 75 degree column for (provided all terminations are rated 75 degrees otherwise we are stuck at 60 degrees anyway) we can use 12 AWG which is rated for 25A.


Welders have many different options because of the different limitations, you can't just size the wire to minimum and put the largest OCPD in for the welder in most every case. To use the largest breaker for the welder you will have to increase the size of the conductor to stay compliant. When you do this, pay attention to 250.122(B) as you have to increase the EGC proportionately to the increase in ungrounded conductor size.

This is easy until you exceed 10 AWG as the EGC is the same size as the ungrounded conductors. Once you go from 10 AWG or below to 8 AWG or above you will have to do some math.

Also keep in mind that generally the EGC is sized to table 250.122 and is based on OCPD size. However, 250.122(A) states that in no case shall the EGC be required to be larger than the conductors supplying the equipment so worst case is you pull a full size ground and avoid the math.

As far as 210.21(B)(3) it doesn't apply unless you have multiple recepticals on the branch circuit. Instead, you would need to look at 210.21(B)(1) which has a nifty little exception 2 that states a receptacle for the use of a cord and plug connected welder shall have an ampacity not less than the minimum branch circuit conductor ampacity determined by 630.11(A) so you could use as small as a 15A receptacle for this.

I hope you find this post helpful and descriptive. If you have further questions feel free to ask.
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Last edited by pudge565; 04-18-2018 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Formatting to make reading easier, I tried originally and the software didn't like it.
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjm View Post
looks like page 9 says 40 breaker with 12 wire..guess it works out with table in 630
That is only a recommended value so you are not limited to that nor are you required to use that as a minimum. See my post above for a detailed explanation of your options.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:48 PM   #9
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Thank you pudge!, and thanks to 220/221 for the pdf.
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Old 04-19-2018, 08:34 AM   #10
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the welder itself have a 25A breaker for the 240V, so it would just use a 30-40A breaker with it. i have one bigger welder at my shop and run it on a 30A breaker for years
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