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macmikeman 09-12-2018 02:00 AM

Too tired after ten hours on site to post the pictures right now
 
But I will when I rest up some. So...... go to service call the other day at really old peoples house on the Bayfront. Nice place. Real nice. Problem- lights not working in downstairs office room- there is more than one set of fixtures not working so I start heading for the panel. There was a Cutler Hammer Br 40 circuit single phase load center for the house. When I opened the panel door - holy crap look at all the twins and quadraplex breakers in that thing. Now for starters the old 40 circuit Cuttler Hammer load centers lug only would not accept any twins or quads - full size breakers only so cut that crap out. I count 57 circuit breakers all together. And then after pulling the cover off , there is also maybe 6 double lugged breakers in addition to the twins and quads. I find the breaker in question with no power going thru it right away and pull it out- yep carbon pitted bus stab. Shut off panel power, go to work on stab with a flat file, make it pretty good , put oxiban on it and a new full size single pole and am about to close up and go when I hear fizzle fizzle fizzle sounds , Start checking the quads and find the asshole beat the rejection bars out with a screwdriver and hammer. All the twins and all the quads except for a few that were the replacement non CTL type that clearly state on the lable on the side of the breakers - for replacement only in listed panels. Do not install in newer panel boards made after 1965.

I went back today and put in a sub panel on the adjacent wall, transferred 20 circuits over to it and fed it with #2 ser in flex conduit on an 80 amp breaker. Then I slowly remade the whole crackhead thing work right, while making sure the right neutrals were used with the right hot wires so I wouldn't screw anything up worse than it was to begin with. I hate people that break a circuit breaker just to fit into a panel that don't want a twin or a quad breaker in the first place. Dip shirts. rant over.

lighterup 09-12-2018 02:52 AM

The guy must not have had a rotozip

99cents 09-12-2018 06:42 AM

I think I know how you feel, mac. I would be happy that I made things pretty and safe for the customer but the guy who did that, I would want to put his ballz in a vice and run over his head with my monster van. It pi$$es me off bad.

wildleg 09-12-2018 07:32 AM

yeah, but did you get paid ?

BTW, I thought you only worked 5 hrs a day so you could either surf or watch hula girls ? what gives ?

Southeast Power 09-12-2018 07:33 AM

Nice save.
Im thinking I would have done a gut swap on the original loadcenter and also add an additional loadcenter the way you did.

99cents 09-12-2018 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildleg (Post 5079106)
yeah, but did you get paid ?

BTW, I thought you only worked 5 hrs a day so you could either surf or watch hula girls ? what gives ?

Mac always gets paid. His van is actually an armored car :) .

HackWork 09-12-2018 08:27 AM

I don't know why people always try to jam more breakers into a panel.

Just combine circuits. Most of those 57 circuits will never see more than 5 amps, and definitely not at the same time as another random circuit.

If the main can handle the load, then 40 breakers is MORE than enough to spread that load out across.

macmikeman 09-12-2018 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HackWork (Post 5079158)
I don't know why people always try to jam more breakers into a panel.

Just combine circuits. Most of those 57 circuits will never see more than 5 amps, and definitely not at the same time as another random circuit.

If the main can handle the load, then 40 breakers is MORE than enough to spread that load out across.

I think we have two culprits. Well three. First and least guilty is the original installer. Filled the 40 up no spaces free. Second and now bad guy is the pv pirates showed up and needed a 2 pole pv main so out comes the screwdriver to break some rejection tabs out , or maybe he was the double lugger which is nothing more than a technical violation in my book. The really big bad naughty came when they decided to put in split ac's for the whole place. I lost count of how many compressors, but there is at least six of them. The electrician (loosely termed I might add, but they are licensed....) that installed the wiring could have easily used Hax"s method to put in a main for a ac panel right where I put my new one and fed all the ac loads off of that. He's the guy I'd like to run over with my van. I didn't even finish after ten hours on that thing, but the proposal was for 2,500 dollars to make this repairs so off I go in an hour or so to complete. That ten hours was double hard cause the old man turns on CNN on the nearby tv and turns it up loud and sits in front of it the whole ten hours I was there.
My head almost exploded . It's going to take me a few more hours to finish, there is no labels on that are reliable on any of the breakers for the most part so I get to hunt and peck now. Ten hours standing in one spot is a lot for a geezer like me.

matt1124 09-12-2018 08:55 PM

OK first of all, the non CTL thing... They obviously know we are using them in panels that are full. How many pre-'65 panelboards are there that they need sleeves and sleeves of non-CTL breakers at Lowe's.

Eaton tech line even told me they don't care anymore since they 42 rule went away, I asked how to determine max circuits since they used to be BR3040B200 and now are just labeled at BR30B200 or similar.

Secondly, do guys not carry breakers without rejection tabs on the trucks? They even make them in quads. Why bother keeping both?

lighterup 09-12-2018 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmikeman (Post 5079258)
I think we have two culprits. Well three. First and least guilty is the original installer. Filled the 40 up no spaces free. Second and now bad guy is the pv pirates showed up and needed a 2 pole pv main so out comes the screwdriver to break some rejection tabs out , or maybe he was the double lugger which is nothing more than a technical violation in my book. The really big bad naughty came when they decided to put in split ac's for the whole place. I lost count of how many compressors, but there is at least six of them. The electrician (loosely termed I might add, but they are licensed....) that installed the wiring could have easily used Hax"s method to put in a main for a ac panel right where I put my new one and fed all the ac loads off of that. He's the guy I'd like to run over with my van. I didn't even finish after ten hours on that thing, but the proposal was for 2,500 dollars to make this repairs so off I go in an hour or so to complete. That ten hours was double hard cause the old man turns on CNN on the nearby tv and turns it up loud and sits in front of it the whole ten hours I was there.
My head almost exploded . It's going to take me a few more hours to finish, there is no labels on that are reliable on any of the breakers for the most part so I get to hunt and peck now. Ten hours standing in one spot is a lot for a geezer like me.


You are in the Land of Goshen my friend...
Surrounded on all sides by the Philistines...
You have my moral support.

lighterup 09-12-2018 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt1124 (Post 5079570)
OK first of all, the non CTL thing... They obviously know we are using them in panels that are full. How many pre-'65 panelboards are there that they need sleeves and sleeves of non-CTL breakers at Lowe's.

Eaton tech line even told me they don't care anymore since they 42 rule went away, I asked how to determine max circuits since they used to be BR3040B200 and now are just labeled at BR30B200 or similar.

Secondly, do guys not carry breakers without rejection tabs on the trucks? They even make them in quads. Why bother keeping both?

Eaton Br is now selling 40-54 space main breaker 200 amp panels
(single phase). I believe damn near all the busses are mini rated now.
(well not quite all , but you get my point)

Jlarson 09-12-2018 10:26 PM

Only 10 hours? eh that's a regular day for me.







Quote:

Originally Posted by HackWork (Post 5079158)
I don't know why people always try to jam more breakers into a panel.

Just combine circuits. Most of those 57 circuits will never see more than 5 amps, and definitely not at the same time as another random circuit.

If the main can handle the load, then 40 breakers is MORE than enough to spread that load out across.


Yep, have wirenuts, will pigtail.

JoeSparky 09-12-2018 10:45 PM

My new go to panel for new construction is a siemens 40/80 mcb panel. Full length neutral bars, 80 circuits and almost the same price as a 40.

https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-S4080.../dp/B01BD87I98

matt1124 09-12-2018 10:58 PM

I hate when they are jammed up like that. Small house gets CH22B100, Medium CH42B200, bigger gets a 320 amp can and 2x Eaton CH42B200. No tandems. Subs from there as required.

There's no need for this 42/84 baloney. The gutters are so packed you can't do anything and sometimes you have to leave the middle screws out or they'll short out.

360max 09-12-2018 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmikeman (Post 5079258)
Quote:

Originally Posted by HackWork (Post 5079158)
I don't know why people always try to jam more breakers into a panel.

Just combine circuits. Most of those 57 circuits will never see more than 5 amps, and definitely not at the same time as another random circuit.

If the main can handle the load, then 40 breakers is MORE than enough to spread that load out across.

I think we have two culprits. Well three. First and least guilty is the original installer. Filled the 40 up no spaces free. Second and now bad guy is the pv pirates showed up and needed a 2 pole pv main so out comes the screwdriver to break some rejection tabs out , or maybe he was the double lugger which is nothing more than a technical violation in my book. The really big bad naughty came when they decided to put in split ac's for the whole place. I lost count of how many compressors, but there is at least six of them. The electrician (loosely termed I might add, but they are licensed....) that installed the wiring could have easily used Hax"s method to put in a main for a ac panel right where I put my new one and fed all the ac loads off of that. He's the guy I'd like to run over with my van. I didn't even finish after ten hours on that thing, but the proposal was for 2,500 dollars to make this repairs so off I go in an hour or so to complete. That ten hours was double hard cause the old man turns on CNN on the nearby tv and turns it up loud and sits in front of it the whole ten hours I was there.
My head almost exploded . It's going to take me a few more hours to finish, there is no labels on that are reliable on any of the breakers for the most part so I get to hunt and peck now. Ten hours standing in one spot is a lot for a geezer like me.

i spit my coffee out over the old man watching CNN for the 10 hours and you had to listen

HackWork 09-13-2018 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt1124 (Post 5079570)
OK first of all, the non CTL thing... They obviously know we are using them in panels that are full. How many pre-'65 panelboards are there that they need sleeves and sleeves of non-CTL breakers at Lowe's.

Eaton tech line even told me they don't care anymore since they 42 rule went away, I asked how to determine max circuits since they used to be BR3040B200 and now are just labeled at BR30B200 or similar.

Secondly, do guys not carry breakers without rejection tabs on the trucks? They even make them in quads. Why bother keeping both?

I carry both because the price is significantly higher in many brands. Why throw out profit?

As far as being allowed to use them, from a code standpoint that won’t work. You will not be able to get what the guy on the phone told you certified in writing. If a panel says 42 circuits max, that’s what we have to go by even if it was compelled by the code at the time which has changed.

HackWork 09-13-2018 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt1124 (Post 5079606)
I hate when they are jammed up like that. Small house gets CH22B100, Medium CH42B200, bigger gets a 320 amp can and 2x Eaton CH42B200. No tandems. Subs from there as required.

There's no need for this 42/84 baloney. The gutters are so packed you can't do anything and sometimes you have to leave the middle screws out or they'll short out.

I agree. I think 40 circuits in a panel is too much, I definitely donít want more than that. I would rather split 40 circuits up into 2 30 space panels.

matt1124 09-13-2018 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HackWork (Post 5079642)
I carry both because the price is significantly higher in many brands. Why throw out profit?

As far as being allowed to use them, from a code standpoint that won’t work. You will not be able to get what the guy on the phone told you certified in writing. If a panel says 42 circuits max, that’s what we have to go by even if it was compelled by the code at the time which has changed.

You're probably right but I just don't carry both, someone buying one or two breakers at $10 more each probably isn't going to be a big deal, vs being out of those without rejection clips because I didn't pay close attention to what needed refilled on the truck.

I know I'd never see it in writing, and looks like the BR series still has a circuit limit, but the CH is sold as "number of poles" instead of "number of circuits" without a circuit number spec, that's why I called them.

HackWork 09-13-2018 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt1124 (Post 5079764)
You're probably right but I just don't carry both, someone buying one or two breakers at $10 more each probably isn't going to be a big deal, vs being out of those without rejection clips because I didn't pay close attention to what needed refilled on the truck.

You would bend over to pickup a $10 bill, right? Writing "CTL" or "non-CTL" next to the breaker brand and size on your material list is far less work.

A lot of the times that I use tandems it is to make room for a 2-pole breaker, so 2 non-cheater tandems saves me $20-30.

Quote:

I know I'd never see it in writing, and looks like the BR series still has a circuit limit, but the CH is sold as "number of poles" instead of "number of circuits" without a circuit number spec, that's why I called them.
I haven't seen that, but I never specifically looked. However, even if the panel doesn't specify a maximum number of circuits somewhere on the label, those breakers still specify that they aren't to be used.

I am not saying that I wouldn't do it, I am just saying that if you are getting inspected that it might not pass if the inspector looks at that.

tmessner 09-13-2018 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmikeman (Post 5079258)
I think we have two culprits. Well three. First and least guilty is the original installer. Filled the 40 up no spaces free. Second and now bad guy is the pv pirates showed up and needed a 2 pole pv main so out comes the screwdriver to break some rejection tabs out , or maybe he was the double lugger which is nothing more than a technical violation in my book. The really big bad naughty came when they decided to put in split ac's for the whole place. I lost count of how many compressors, but there is at least six of them. The electrician (loosely termed I might add, but they are licensed....) that installed the wiring could have easily used Hax"s method to put in a main for a ac panel right where I put my new one and fed all the ac loads off of that. He's the guy I'd like to run over with my van. I didn't even finish after ten hours on that thing, but the proposal was for 2,500 dollars to make this repairs so off I go in an hour or so to complete. That ten hours was double hard cause the old man turns on CNN on the nearby tv and turns it up loud and sits in front of it the whole ten hours I was there.
My head almost exploded . It's going to take me a few more hours to finish, there is no labels on that are reliable on any of the breakers for the most part so I get to hunt and peck now. Ten hours standing in one spot is a lot for a geezer like me.

I have been known to have to "work on that circuit for an extended period of time" to control the heat as the the old man may want it at 76 in the winter and i have on long johns.


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