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Old 02-09-2015, 08:37 PM   #21
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Thank to all for your comments. After reading all the advice/recommendations - I am much more at ease.

I was under the impression that a GENERAL CONTRACTOR could pull an electrical permit, and then have a journeyman electrician do the work.

cdslotz, I'm not afraid of explaining anything to TDLR - I just didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

One other question: A few years back, I was working for an electrical company out of Fort Worth, and I remember we had to have a Journeyman present on the project site at all times. Is that state law or was it maybe company policy?
Looks like only an "electrical contractor" can pull an electrical permit - from what I've read.
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Old 02-09-2015, 08:53 PM   #22
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Old 02-10-2015, 01:40 AM   #23
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So you're worried about him getting you in trouble, but you don't want to get him in trouble. Something a bit fishy about this story...
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Old 02-10-2015, 06:59 AM   #24
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One other question: A few years back, I was working for an electrical company out of Fort Worth, and I remember we had to have a Journeyman present on the project site at all times. Is that state law or was it maybe company policy?
Looks like only an "electrical contractor" can pull an electrical permit - from what I've read.[/quote]

In MI having a licensed Journeyman on the job is a State requirement. Does it happen all the time?? NO. At times you'll find the Journeyman on the job going after material, when in fact it should be the apprentice that is sent to do that task. Of course on the larger jobs you'll have more then one Journeyman working so in that case it's allowable to not send an apprentice. Especially if he's digging a trench. LOL
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Old 02-10-2015, 07:55 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabee133 View Post
One other question: A few years back, I was working for an electrical company out of Fort Worth, and I remember we had to have a Journeyman present on the project site at all times. Is that state law or was it maybe company policy?
It's likely the journeyman on the jobsite rule is related to apprentice supervision, although it appears that Texas is pretty lax in this area; however, company policy may always exceed state requirements.

According to Electrician Licensing Administrative Rules 73.10(7) On-Site Supervision--Exercise of supervision of electrical work or electrical sign work by a licensed individual other than an electrical apprentice. Continuous supervision of an electrical apprentice is not required, though the on-site supervising licensee is responsible for review and inspection of the electrical apprentice’s work to ensure compliance with any applicable codes or standards.

http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricia...rules.htm#7327

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky48 View Post
In MI having a licensed Journeyman on the job is a State requirement. Does it happen all the time?? NO. At times you'll find the Journeyman on the job going after material, when in fact it should be the apprentice that is sent to do that task. Of course on the larger jobs you'll have more then one Journeyman working so in that case it's allowable to not send an apprentice. Especially if he's digging a trench. LOL
In Michigan the requirement is actually a little more stringent than simply having a journeyman on the job, there are required apprentice to journeyman ratios that must also be adhered to.

Act 217 section 338.883e states, (3) Except as otherwise provided in subsection four, the ratio of electrical journeymen or master electricians to registered apprentice electricians shall be on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 1 registered apprentice electrician. The department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the ratio on a jobsite basis. (4) Notwithstanding subsection three, in the case of a residential single family dwelling or a multifamily dwelling not exceeding 8 units per building, the department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the apprentice electrician ratio on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 2 registered apprentice electricians on a jobsite basis.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(elb...e=mcl-338-883e
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Old 02-10-2015, 08:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michigan Master View Post
It's likely the journeyman on the jobsite rule is related to apprentice supervision, although it appears that Texas is pretty lax in this area; however, company policy may always exceed state requirements.

According to Electrician Licensing Administrative Rules 73.10(7) On-Site Supervision--Exercise of supervision of electrical work or electrical sign work by a licensed individual other than an electrical apprentice. Continuous supervision of an electrical apprentice is not required, though the on-site supervising licensee is responsible for review and inspection of the electrical apprentice’s work to ensure compliance with any applicable codes or standards.

http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricia...rules.htm#7327




In Michigan the requirement is actually a little more stringent than simply having a journeyman on the job, there are required apprentice to journeyman ratios that must also be adhered to.

Act 217 section 338.883e states, (3) Except as otherwise provided in subsection four, the ratio of electrical journeymen or master electricians to registered apprentice electricians shall be on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 1 registered apprentice electrician. The department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the ratio on a jobsite basis. (4) Notwithstanding subsection three, in the case of a residential single family dwelling or a multifamily dwelling not exceeding 8 units per building, the department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the apprentice electrician ratio on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 2 registered apprentice electricians on a jobsite basis.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(elb...e=mcl-338-883e
Understood. Just didn't want to get into the technical stuff.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Stickshaker View Post
So you're worried about him getting you in trouble, but you don't want to get him in trouble. Something a bit fishy about this story...
Nothing fishy about the story. Now that I know he cannot pull an electrical permit with my license or as a general contractor - I have peace of mind.

Here in Texas in order to become a Journeyman Electrician, you must have 8000 hours of documented on-the-job experience under a master, and you must be able to pass a 240 minute exam over the NEC. This process takes approximately 4 years to accomplish and some electricians can't even pass the test.

Needless to say, I was a little concerned about my close relative having my license number. I guess I do need to grow a pair, and tell him my license is not to be used in any way, shape or form. But...again now I know he really can't do anything with it.
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Old 02-10-2015, 09:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michigan Master View Post
It's likely the journeyman on the jobsite rule is related to apprentice supervision, although it appears that Texas is pretty lax in this area; however, company policy may always exceed state requirements.

According to Electrician Licensing Administrative Rules 73.10(7) On-Site Supervision--Exercise of supervision of electrical work or electrical sign work by a licensed individual other than an electrical apprentice. Continuous supervision of an electrical apprentice is not required, though the on-site supervising licensee is responsible for review and inspection of the electrical apprentice’s work to ensure compliance with any applicable codes or standards.

http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricia...rules.htm#7327


In Michigan the requirement is actually a little more stringent than simply having a journeyman on the job, there are required apprentice to journeyman ratios that must also be adhered to.

Act 217 section 338.883e states, (3) Except as otherwise provided in subsection four, the ratio of electrical journeymen or master electricians to registered apprentice electricians shall be on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 1 registered apprentice electrician. The department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the ratio on a jobsite basis. (4) Notwithstanding subsection three, in the case of a residential single family dwelling or a multifamily dwelling not exceeding 8 units per building, the department of labor or an enforcing agency shall enforce the apprentice electrician ratio on the basis of 1 electrical journeyman or master electrician to 2 registered apprentice electricians on a jobsite basis.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(elb...e=mcl-338-883e
Thanks to ALL for the outstanding information you all have provided.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:05 PM   #29
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This brings up a question by me, I had a friend who came from Texas,(passed on) and was an apprentice. He told me at the time that Texas had master electricians who were to pull permits above a certain dollar amount? And that not very many journeymen were around. It was mostly experienced apprentices.

Now that may be the case, IDK. But from what I am reading here, it is not.
I know that in some states, there is no licensing needed. Go figure. And some states allow the journeyman to pull small jobs that only require a journeyman and apprentice.

You have a license, you should know the law in your area/state. If you do not it is your own fault.

I would go to the areas that he generally works, check to see if I had any permits under my license that were open and I didn't pull, and close them. Pull the permit. Get all copies of the paperwork and possibly even go to the jobsite with the AHJ to red tag the job shutting it down.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabee133 View Post
Here in Texas in order to become a Journeyman Electrician, you must have 8000 hours of documented on-the-job experience under a master, and you must be able to pass a 240 minute exam over the NEC. This process takes approximately 4 years to accomplish and most electricians can't even pass the test.
FIFY. Another interesting Texas tidbit: http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricia...mStats2013.htm

I wish Michigan published pass/fail rates.
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Old 02-12-2015, 12:40 PM   #31
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No matter what you gather from all this hearsay, you would likely have to defend yourself. Whether you are found guilty or liable for anything would be up to the courts, licensing authority, or AHJ to decide. Either way, it could get costly to defend yourself. Better take care of it now rather than later.
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Old 02-12-2015, 03:58 PM   #32
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FIFY. Another interesting Texas tidbit: http://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricia...mStats2013.htm

I wish Michigan published pass/fail rates.
That webpage shows that there is a good business opportunity in teaching code refresher courses.
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