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Old 07-11-2019, 05:32 AM   #21
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I don't think there's a really good analogy for a transformer in plumbing. If you had a pump with two impellers, a big pipe with low pressure on one side and a little pipe with high pressure on the other.

Transformers are weird, there is nothing intuitive to me that they would work, they are pretty much magic.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I don't think there's a really good analogy for a transformer in plumbing. If you had a pump with two impellers, a big pipe with low pressure on one side and a little pipe with high pressure on the other.

Transformers are weird, there is nothing intuitive to me that they would work, they are pretty much magic.
The mechanism... the HOW they work... is magic, but the principle of energy out = energy in is simple, and fits a water analogy easily.

High voltage x low current = low voltage x high current

High pressure x low volume = low pressure x high volume

In fact, if you work out the units with dimensional analysis, you'll see that both volts x amps and pressure x flow rate end up being the same, = power = energy/time. Of course, in American units of PSI and gal/minute the unit of power would be pound-gallon/sq. in-minute, which has the fundamental units of (force x distance)/time.

EDIT: 1 pound-gallon/square inch-minute = 0.44275 watts
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:22 AM   #23
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Yeah, just when I think I'm on to something, along comes CoolWill who swiftly ruins my thoughts with logic.

Damn you.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:51 AM   #24
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High voltage x low current = low voltage x high current

High pressure x low volume = low pressure x high volume

The thing about a transformer is the water on the one side wouldn't "touch" the water on the other ... the field of the transformer / core would be like the common shaft on two impellers



Quote:
In fact, if you work out the units with dimensional analysis, you'll see that both volts x amps and pressure x flow rate end up being the same, = power = energy/time. Of course, in American units of PSI and gal/minute the unit of power would be pound-gallon/sq. in-minute, which has the fundamental units of (force x distance)/time.


EDIT: 1 pound-gallon/square inch-minute = 0.44275 watts

This really boils down to conservation of energy, or in the case of a nuclear power plant, conservation of matter and energy. It's amazing that the math always works out as predicted but it makes sense to me.



Now the electrical field. induction, transformer thing ... if it hadn't been invented yet, and someone said they read about it, I'd think they were full of ****.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:01 PM   #25
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It's not healthy to start drinking first thing in the morning. I usually wait until coffee.
Why wait? Just add some Bailey’s or Jameson to your coffee. It works for me.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:16 PM   #26
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The thing about a transformer is the water on the one side wouldn't "touch" the water on the other ... the field of the transformer / core would be like the common shaft on two impellers
It's easy to think of the invisible field coupling coils of a transformer as some kind of magically ghostly force, but if you turn the tables and look at matter differently, things aren't as detached. For example, with two fluid-coupled impellers, it makes sense because we see the fluid. But another way of looking at it is the two impellers are tuned to interact with a "matter field". In this case, the transfer medium is a liquid"l "matter field". In the case of a transformer, the transfer medium is the magnetic field. In either case there is a medium that transfers energy without being a source of energy.

Matter is the condensed form of energy. So whether you use a fluid or a magnetic field, both are a kind of energy field that can be manipulated to transfer other energy. The real difference is the viscosity.




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Now the electrical field. induction, transformer thing ... if it hadn't been invented yet, and someone said they read about it, I'd think they were full of ****.
Magentism in general is mind blowing. Even more so if you think about it from the point of view of the magnet. The relativistic interchangeability of magnetic and electric fields under coordinate transformation is another head banger, but so beautiful when you see the math. Crazy.
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Old 07-11-2019, 04:20 PM   #27
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Is this how you come up with perpetual energy?

Can it be done?
Voltage in parallel with current = DC.

Just ask Edison.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:42 PM   #28
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Exactly...we have to supply the V, with the already present A, to achieve P.
P is really what we're after here.




I get all that.

I'm stuck on how we supply the V, and whether V is the only way to move an electron.
I've heard magnets work well for that.
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:49 AM   #29
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Magentism in general is mind blowing. Even more so if you think about it from the point of view of the magnet. The relativistic interchangeability of magnetic and electric fields under coordinate transformation is another head banger, but so beautiful when you see the math. Crazy.

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I've heard magnets work well for that.
Is magnetism the only way to move an electron?
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:06 AM   #30
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I just want to remind everyone that CoolWill is my second account.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:19 AM   #31
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Is magnetism the only way to move an electron?
It's not the only way, but it's apparently the best way. Electrons have mass and inertia, so they can be mechanically moved like billiard ball's. But they are also charged, so they "feel" and interact with every other electric field around it. In other words, they are hard to grab and move like billiard balls. You can move them with heat. Thermal electrons are what makes stuff hot. Turns out that being a good electrical conductor makes you a good heat conductor for the very same reason. But moving electrons with heat is very involved and messy.

So if heating electrons sucks, and you can't mechanically herd them, the only thing left to do is interact with their charge. Magnetism influences electric charge when one field moves in relation to the other. And it does so through empty space with no physical connection. That's pretty badass. External electric fields, like the poles of a battery, also move electrons. But we already know that.

I think, as far as electricity in conductors goes, its already as dirt simple and efficient as it can be, barring lab condition superconductors. But the energy it takes to move electrons in conductors, that's the real issue. I don't believe in the idea of perpetual motion. In my view, the universe is a closed system. Nothing leaves, nothing enters. There is a fixed amount of energy in the universe. If there were some infinite wellspring of energy, and there were ANY way for us to tap it, then it would also appear in nature. The universe would be a very different place than it is by observation.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:35 AM   #32
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This is all mescaline talk. I want me a ham sandwich. With mustard.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:58 AM   #33
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So if heating electrons sucks, and you can't mechanically herd them,
Ah ha...why wouldn't it be possible to electrically herd them, and then transfer kinetic energy through them?
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:41 AM   #34
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Ah ha...why wouldn't it be possible to electrically herd them, and then transfer kinetic energy through them?
To what end? We already electrically herd them inside of circuits. They have kinetic energy. What would somehow giving electrons a kinetic boost do that couldn't be done electrically?
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:37 PM   #35
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I think, as far as electricity in conductors goes, its already as dirt simple and efficient as it can be, barring lab condition superconductors. But the energy it takes to move electrons in conductors, that's the real issue. I don't believe in the idea of perpetual motion. In my view, the universe is a closed system. Nothing leaves, nothing enters. There is a fixed amount of energy in the universe. If there were some infinite wellspring of energy, and there were ANY way for us to tap it, then it would also appear in nature. The universe would be a very different place than it is by observation.
27% of the universe seems to be missing. Until we find out what has mass yet can not be measured (dark matter) the jury is still out.

I personally do not believe in the big band theory (all mass came from one bang). I believe that the universe was already filled with some type of mass that we have been unable to measure and a big bang caused a chain reaction that converted some of this to measurable mass which would explain why the universe is expanding faster than it should.
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:47 PM   #36
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27% of the universe seems to be missing. Until we find out what has mass yet can not be measured (dark matter) the jury is still out.

I personally do not believe in the big band theory (all mass came from one bang). I believe that the universe was already filled with some type of mass that we have been unable to measure and a big bang caused a chain reaction that converted some of this to measurable mass which would explain why the universe is expanding faster than it should.
I'm not convinced that dark matter and dark energy exist. The assumptions and measurements used to reach those ideas are a little suspicious to me.

The big bang is a little easier to swallow.
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:06 AM   #37
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I'm not convinced that dark matter and dark energy exist. The assumptions and measurements used to reach those ideas are a little suspicious to me.

The big bang is a little easier to swallow.

I saw what you did there..............
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:12 AM   #38
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I'm not convinced that dark matter and dark energy exist. The assumptions and measurements used to reach those ideas are a little suspicious to me.

The big bang is a little easier to swallow.
What caused this "bang"? How long did that infinitesimal point exist before spontaneously exploding, and what initiated it? How do we know there was only one "bang"? And, if the universe is 14 billion years old, how can it be 92 billion light years wide?

The assumption that everything is binary, as in, a positive, and a negative version of all that exists, in perfect balance makes more sense to me. Still doesn't explain matter though. Unless, you consider everything as a frequency.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:16 AM   #39
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Is magnetism the only way to move an electron?

You can't talk about *just* charge or *just* magnetism. It is called "electromagnetism" because they exist together. We can neglect certain aspects so that we can study specific effects in ideal conditions, but outside of the on-paper ideal scenarios it doesn't work.


For instance, we can take two point charges that exist on a plane at certain angles from each other and compute the force vector acting on each from the other based on that, as well as a net force vector. However, in real life those charges won't be suspended in that manner, and as soon as a charge begins to move, we have to consider the rest of the forces.


A moving charge creates a magnetic field.
A changing magnetic field induces a voltage.
Magnetic fields are always dipoles


As far as the big bang goes, we postulated the theory, then decades later accidentally saw the cosmic background radiation. It was a happy accident. I don't think we have gotten to a point where we know all that much about the proposed singularity, but we could be wrong.


I don't know enough about dark matter and dark energy to really weigh in, but this last semester my physics professor (who works at CERN), said that it seems like dark energy is what gives us the mass component of matter. Man, that class made my head hurt.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:16 AM   #40
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And you are both wrong. In the beginning there was God. And God said let there be light. And that was bitchin so he kept it up for 6 days making stuff, then on the seventh day he rested. That's how it was done.
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