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Old 06-25-2019, 07:11 PM   #1
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Default Welder Circuit Neutral

I was in a SH today when I overheard (loud talkers) two guys talking about pulling in a circuit for a welder. The one old guy insisted that code requires a neutral pulled in with the ground also, just like a dryer or a stove he says. The other guy disputed some, but bought the extra wire to pull in. I don’t have a dog in this fight so I keep my mouth shut. A industrial welder doesn’t need or have a place to land a neutral at all so what is this guy talking about? Or is he the ever present SH know it all?
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:26 PM   #2
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You said SH ... but was it actually HD
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by 460 Delta View Post
I was in a SH today when I overheard (loud talkers) two guys talking about pulling in a circuit for a welder. The one old guy insisted that code requires a neutral pulled in with the ground also, just like a dryer or a stove he says. The other guy disputed some, but bought the extra wire to pull in. I don’t have a dog in this fight so I keep my mouth shut. A industrial welder doesn’t need or have a place to land a neutral at all so what is this guy talking about? Or is he the ever present SH know it all?
Neutral conductor for welder ? in majorty of the time my answer is no it is NOT needed at all due most models I have see are line to line load connection beside couple small portable welders they can run on 120 volt circuit.

if those turkeys yapping about it .,, all they have to do is check the specs before they get extra conductor for naught.,,

On other hand I dont know if you heard but I have see it once a super while .,, some dolts will use wild leg connection to run the welder. and the result is not really good at all.
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:42 PM   #4
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Trust me @emtnut, I was at a bonafide supply house, this was for work. I use Lowe’s for my after hours, discreet, no permit, no license, no problem work.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:03 PM   #5
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was the guy trying to buy an MD6 crimper for $19.99 by any chance?
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:19 PM   #6
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Trust me @emtnut, I was at a bonafide supply house, this was for work. I use Lowe’s for my after hours, discreet, no permit, no license, no problem work.
They let anyone in those SH's these days

If the welder plug required a neutral (never seen one, but I haven't seen everything .... yet !) Then yes, a neutral would be needed.
Haven't seen one yet, so it would be a first for me

I heard somewhere that the Tesla's require a neutral, but it may be optional ??
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:37 PM   #7
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A 4 pin receptacle requires it so maybe its not the welder but the plug that was used.

Some welders do have a 120v output for a wire feeder/water cooler but that may be supplied by the welder transformer rather than using a neutral.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:24 AM   #8
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If it’s metallic conduit, he pulled two unnecessary conductors.

For the record, supply house babble is usually wrong.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:59 AM   #9
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For the record, supply house babble is usually wrong.
This same old man loudly told the other guy that he should go ahead and get his masters licence [Ky] because it's easy, even if you're not an electrician.
I knew at that point he was full of beans, but a broken clock is still right twice a day so....
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Old 06-26-2019, 05:20 AM   #10
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Neutral conductor for welder ? in majorty of the time my answer is no it is NOT needed at all due most models I have see are line to line load connection beside couple small portable welders they can run on 120 volt circuit.

if those turkeys yapping about it .,, all they have to do is check the specs before they get extra conductor for naught.,,

On other hand I dont know if you heard but I have see it once a super while .,, some dolts will use wild leg connection to run the welder. and the result is not really good at all.
Most farm and light commercial welders have a 6-50r plug installed so, yeah the neutral will get folded up in the box never landed. Larger industrial machines[Idealarc, Dialarc, to name a couple] have no cordset and will require a field connection. This is two hots to the top of the switch and a lug to hit with the ground wire, again no neutral. I'm amazed at times the things people say and not think about the cicuit in question.
The using the high leg to the neutral connection, why, unless the machine has a 208 tap the welder will have a low OCV and be harder to weld with. I suppose if you have a full panel and have a few open B slots then the temptation to just get it done could be too great to overcome.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:19 AM   #11
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A dryer is 120/240V and requires both a neutral and ground. The code article is there because it is commonplace to bond neutral to ground for electric dryers, and they want to stop that on new installations. Code is specific to dryers and ranges and other things.

Everything else you wire up as necessary. If something does not require a neutral, such as a welder or Telsa, you do not have to run a neutral.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:06 AM   #12
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If we were to wire up Telsa, I’m sure the directions would be a multi paragraph screed.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 460 Delta View Post
Most farm and light commercial welders have a 6-50r plug installed so, yeah the neutral will get folded up in the box never landed. Larger industrial machines[Idealarc, Dialarc, to name a couple] have no cordset and will require a field connection. This is two hots to the top of the switch and a lug to hit with the ground wire, again no neutral. I'm amazed at times the things people say and not think about the cicuit in question.
The using the high leg to the neutral connection, why, unless the machine has a 208 tap the welder will have a low OCV and be harder to weld with. I suppose if you have a full panel and have a few open B slots then the temptation to just get it done could be too great to overcome.
What is a wild leg connection?
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:52 AM   #14
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The ~208 vac line to neutral on a 230 4 wire Delta bank.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:59 AM   #15
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A dryer is 120/240V and requires both a neutral and ground. The code article is there because it is commonplace to bond neutral to ground for electric dryers, and they want to stop that on new installations. Code is specific to dryers and ranges and other things.

Everything else you wire up as necessary. If something does not require a neutral, such as a welder or Telsa, you do not have to run a neutral.
In the case of the tesla charger, if it plugs in, then you are not "wiring up" the charger, but the receptacle. If that receptacle has a neutral terminal, then under Canadian code we have to wire a neutral to it, regardless of whether the connected equipment will use it or not. In the case of the welder, it uses a 6-50R which has no neutral terminal.

26-700 (2) Except as provided for by other Rules of this Code, receptacles having configurations in accordance with Diagrams 1 and 2 shall be connected only to circuits having a nominal system voltage and ampere rating corresponding to the rating of the configurations.

That being said, I am wiring for a welder in my garage, and I will be running a neutral so that when I sell the place I can swap the receptacle for a 14-50R and sell it as EV ready.

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Old 06-26-2019, 10:44 AM   #16
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What is a wild leg connection?
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The ~208 vac line to neutral on a 230 4 wire Delta bank.
Also referred to as a high leg delta.
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Old 06-26-2019, 11:54 AM   #17
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On other hand I dont know if you heard but I have see it once a super while .,, some dolts will use wild leg connection to run the welder. and the result is not really good at all.
Not sure I understand:

Wild leg and one of the other legs?

Wild leg and neutral?

I don't see why either would result in not good
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by B-Nabs View Post
In the case of the tesla charger, if it plugs in, then you are not "wiring up" the charger, but the receptacle. If that receptacle has a neutral terminal, then under Canadian code we have to wire a neutral to it, regardless of whether the connected equipment will use it or not. In the case of the welder, it uses a 6-50R which has no neutral terminal.

26-700 (2) Except as provided for by other Rules of this Code, receptacles having configurations in accordance with Diagrams 1 and 2 shall be connected only to circuits having a nominal system voltage and ampere rating corresponding to the rating of the configurations.

That being said, I am wiring for a welder in my garage, and I will be running a neutral so that when I sell the place I can swap the receptacle for a 14-50R and sell it as EV ready.
EV chargers are 240V and don't need a neutral. You can plug the Tesla in with their 240V 6-50R 3 prong plug. No neutral prong, no neutral required.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:43 PM   #19
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Any time an "electrician" cites needing a neutral "just like a dryer or range" when talking about a straight 240V circuit, especially in a commercial or industrial setting, their credibility plummets! Question everything else they say.

This is SO clear in the code it's not even funny.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:47 PM   #20
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EV chargers are 240V and don't need a neutral. You can plug the Tesla in with their 240V 6-50R 3 prong plug. No neutral prong, no neutral required.
It is of course not the charger but the receptacle that requires the neutral to function as intended and to satisfy the listing (and therefore meet code).
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