Whose at Fault? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion


Like Tree31Likes
  • 1 Post By Majewski
  • 4 Post By MechanicalDVR
  • 6 Post By TheLivingBubba
  • 3 Post By Cow
  • 1 Post By Dash Dingo
  • 5 Post By MikeFL
  • 1 Post By 99cents
  • 1 Post By PlugsAndLights
  • 6 Post By Dash Dingo
  • 2 Post By Majewski
  • 1 Post By B-Nabs
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2016, 12:08 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Dash Dingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 707
Rewards Points: 318
Default Whose at Fault?

I'm doing office build out at a building that calls for me to wire five RTU's.
When I started the rough in and running pipes for home runs I asked the HVAC foreman for some info on the RTUs so I could plan accordingly and get all my stuff above the ceiling done.
He later handed me a spec book that arrived on site with specs for all the mech. Equipment for the space.
He showed me the specs for the five RTUs in the spec book and specifically spotted em out for me.
All the RTU's were 480v 20amp MOCP in the spec book.
The space has a basically empty 480 volt panel and next to it two 208v panels.
Long story short the RTUS were not on site yet, they were actually supposed to be there three weeks earlier and to keep the job moving I piped home runs, pulled wire, set boxes, bought the breakers and landed them out of the 480 v panel. All I had to do was wait a few weeks for the RTUs to get craned up 10 stories and wire em on the roof.
Well yesterday they set em I went up there and took a peak and they set 208v 50amp MOCP RTU's.
I had to do a double take and let a few four letter words fly.
Went and found the HVAC foreman and Job soup and let them know, lot a phone calls made.
I spent about two days wiring for the RTU's. We're having a meeting on Monday with all the project managers, foreman, and gen contractor. To see how to solve the issue.
I think it's BS, the job soup and my boss think it's BS. The soup wants them to put in what they specked out. I'm not doing anything for free.
Supposedly the project manager for the HVAC company ordered the RTUs and said that there was never a set voltage and that his foreman should not of showed me that spec book.
Has anyone ever came across this situation before and had a good way to resolve it without having the wiring redone?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dash Dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-14-2016, 12:11 AM   #2
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

Ick... I can't offer help but I feel for the situation. Sorry you dealt with some bs like that dude. Would this be a building I know by any chance?
Dash Dingo likes this.
__________________
I've been alive as long as I can remember.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:18 AM   #3
Old Grumpy Bastard
 
MechanicalDVR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: "Old Dominion"
Posts: 59,290
Rewards Points: 996
Default

I can't recall a job where the RTUs came in with lower voltage than the specs but there were plenty of times where the plans said 208v and 480v units were delivered. Some times it was caught before they off loaded and other times it was after they were set. No matter how you slice it the guy that told you they were xxxx in the book is at fault. Not fun but you all need to figure out how to resolve it in an amicable way for all parties.
__________________
I'm as Christian as possible in the times we live in.

Always just a stallion in a china shop

Last edited by MechanicalDVR; 08-14-2016 at 12:21 AM.
MechanicalDVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-14-2016, 12:18 AM   #4
Trained Monkey
 
TheLivingBubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: In a van down by the river.
Posts: 325
Rewards Points: 390
Default

If you supplied the conduit and wire per the HVAC contractors submittal...I smell a change order.
__________________
When in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.
TheLivingBubba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:21 AM   #5
Cow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 2,872
Rewards Points: 4,580
Default

I would not touch a thing until it gets hashed out. You did what any reasonable electrician would have done trying to keep the project moving forward. I've been there many times, the HVAC installers show up to run duct, etc. I ask them what size units/voltage/phase, etc are you installing? I usually get a blank look "you will have to wait for our boss to come down next week and he can tell you."



Honestly, I'm surprised I haven't gotten hosed yet. So far, nothing huge has jumped out at me.

Just remember, it's not your fault the HVAC foreman and HVAC project manager are not on the same page. There for, it's not your fault that they didn't communicate properly what the equipment was going to be. I'm amazed they didn't ask for your thoughts on what voltage/phase equipment they should buy before ordering it. I deal with the same HVAC companies mostly and the good ones will usually ask me to make sure there is enough power for the units they want before ordering them.
Cow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:30 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Dash Dingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 707
Rewards Points: 318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majewski View Post
Ick... I can't offer help but I feel for the situation. Sorry you dealt with some bs like that dude. Would this be a building I know by any chance?


Earl Brown in Brooklyn Center


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dash Dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:33 AM   #7
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

The senior place!?
__________________
I've been alive as long as I can remember.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:33 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Dash Dingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 707
Rewards Points: 318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cow View Post
I would not touch a thing until it gets hashed out. You did what any reasonable electrician would have done trying to keep the project moving forward. I've been there many times, the HVAC installers show up to run duct, etc. I ask them what size units/voltage/phase, etc are you installing? I usually get a blank look "you will have to wait for our boss to come down next week and he can tell you."



Honestly, I'm surprised I haven't gotten hosed yet. So far, nothing huge has jumped out at me.

Just remember, it's not your fault the HVAC foreman and HVAC project manager are not on the same page. There for, it's not your fault that they didn't communicate properly what the equipment was going to be. I'm amazed they didn't ask for your thoughts on what voltage/phase equipment they should buy before ordering it. I deal with the same HVAC companies mostly and the good ones will usually ask me to make sure there is enough power for the units they want before ordering them.


I've never have seen a building that had 480 and 208 and 480 was not being used for Roof tops. You'd think it would be a no brainier to use 480 as much as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MechanicalDVR likes this.
Dash Dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 12:38 AM   #9
Cow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Eastern Oregon
Posts: 2,872
Rewards Points: 4,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dash Dingo View Post
I've never have seen a building that had 480 and 208 and 480 was not being used for Roof tops. You'd think it would be a no brainier to use 480 as much as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, from an electrical standpoint it is. But, I also know 208v HVAC equipment and parts are a lot more readily available and cheaper to repair. I know this because we're doing a large dairy with both those voltages and we finally decided to use 208v just for that reason. Wire and pipe is a one time expense, upkeep on HVAC units is ongoing.
Cow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 01:15 AM   #10
Old Grumpy Bastard
 
MechanicalDVR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: "Old Dominion"
Posts: 59,290
Rewards Points: 996
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cow View Post
Yes, from an electrical standpoint it is. But, I also know 208v HVAC equipment and parts are a lot more readily available and cheaper to repair. I know this because we're doing a large dairy with both those voltages and we finally decided to use 208v just for that reason. Wire and pipe is a one time expense, upkeep on HVAC units is ongoing.
That isn't really a universal fact. Units like Aaon are available in any voltage readily because they are pretty much built to spec for your job. All the commercial companies are good about that. It's the residential brands that want to capture some of the commercial market that have stock issues with 480v and 3 phase in general. Janitrol, Goodman, Lennox, and Magic Chef should stick to what they are best at.
__________________
I'm as Christian as possible in the times we live in.

Always just a stallion in a china shop
MechanicalDVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 07:41 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
MikeFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: The Sunshine State
Posts: 5,380
Rewards Points: 2,858
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dash Dingo View Post
I'm doing office build out at a building that calls for me to wire five RTU's.
When I started the rough in and running pipes for home runs I asked the HVAC foreman for some info on the RTUs so I could plan accordingly and get all my stuff above the ceiling done.
He later handed me a spec book that arrived on site with specs for all the mech. Equipment for the space.
He showed me the specs for the five RTUs in the spec book and specifically spotted em out for me.
All the RTU's were 480v 20amp MOCP in the spec book.
The space has a basically empty 480 volt panel and next to it two 208v panels.
Long story short the RTUS were not on site yet, they were actually supposed to be there three weeks earlier and to keep the job moving I piped home runs, pulled wire, set boxes, bought the breakers and landed them out of the 480 v panel. All I had to do was wait a few weeks for the RTUs to get craned up 10 stories and wire em on the roof.
Well yesterday they set em I went up there and took a peak and they set 208v 50amp MOCP RTU's.
I had to do a double take and let a few four letter words fly.
Went and found the HVAC foreman and Job soup and let them know, lot a phone calls made.
I spent about two days wiring for the RTU's. We're having a meeting on Monday with all the project managers, foreman, and gen contractor. To see how to solve the issue.
I think it's BS, the job soup and my boss think it's BS. The soup wants them to put in what they specked out. I'm not doing anything for free.
Supposedly the project manager for the HVAC company ordered the RTUs and said that there was never a set voltage and that his foreman should not of showed me that spec book.
Has anyone ever came across this situation before and had a good way to resolve it without having the wiring redone?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Because the guy is the HVAC contractor's foreman, I'd say it's on them. It's not like you asked the greenhorn or the roach coach driver for direction. You asked the highest ranking on-site representative of the company in responsible control and they responded.

There is a phrase called "detrimental reliance" which means you relied in good faith on the actions of others and a problem was born from relying on that information.

As to "...should have never showed me that spec book..." well he did. He needs to take that up with his foreman.

I don't know how you guys get permits for jobs like this in MN without that information being in the plans. You sure couldn't get a permit here for that without equipment specs, load calcs, panel schedules, energy calcs, etc... Every state is different.
__________________
Michael Gookin, President
GPS Timers

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

(833) GPS-TIME
MikeFL is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 10:00 AM   #12
Petulant Amateur
 
99cents's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Perky Nipples, Canada
Posts: 20,648
Rewards Points: 11,661
Default

There has to be a paper trail. Spec got changed. Engineer needed to approve the change. Change order issued and you send invoice. If the HVAC contractor arbitrarily made his own decision then he has some explaining to do.
MechanicalDVR likes this.
99cents is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 99cents For This Useful Post:
halfamp (08-14-2016), MechanicalDVR (08-14-2016)
Old 08-14-2016, 10:28 AM   #13
Safety Pin Member
 
PlugsAndLights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 2,255
Rewards Points: 2,880
Default

You and your company will need to correct the fall out from the HVAC
co's mis-communications. Your co should be compensated accordingly.
Right now it's a matter of reaching that end in a calm and factual manner.
P&L
MechanicalDVR likes this.
__________________
Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, aggression, and sadism.[1] Often grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate.
PlugsAndLights is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 11:46 AM   #14
Coffee drinking member
 
Wirenuting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ceti Alpha V
Posts: 11,958
Rewards Points: 5,502
Default

I have this happen all the time with replacement units. I get sent to disconnect the old unit. 2 months later boss sends me to hook up the new one and the voltage is wrong.
He can't understand that the old 480 pipe job isn't going to work on the new 208 unit that's twice as big.
I stopped asking what we are getting as the answer is always the same, "I'm not sure."
And yes, my boss is the AC Forman.
__________________
Teacher, my brain is full... Can I go home now?
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wirenuting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2016, 01:41 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
220/221's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 7,613
Rewards Points: 3,998
Default

Quote:
He showed me the specs for the five RTUs in the spec book and specifically spotted em out for me.
All the RTU's were 480v 20amp MOCP in the spec book.
Who's at fault? Probably not you.

It seems like the AC circuits would be drawn on the plans. I have seen the plans that state, "verify" and it sounds like you did. As long as the AC guy doesn't lie, you will be in the clear.



Quote:
I can't recall a job where the RTUs came in with lower voltage than the specs but there were plenty of times where the plans said 208v and 480v units were delivered
I showed up to a site to run power to a new big ass (100 ton?) unit the size of a trailer. Whoops. No 480 on the site.

The could have and should have simply rewired the components (it was doable as all components were dual voltage) but they didn't want to void the warranty or wait for the factory guys could come out and do it.

They had me install a (75KVA?) transformer I said I'd do it but didn't want to assume any responsibility for what I saw as a terrible idea.

It was a good call because somehow the transformer failed in a year and I had to replace it.

Last edited by 220/221; 08-14-2016 at 02:01 PM.
220/221 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 08:50 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Dash Dingo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 707
Rewards Points: 318
Default

The mechanical contractor willingly admitted he biffed it and will pay us to rewire from 480 to 208.
My boss came out and looked and said the transformer for the 208 panel is undersized. So he wants me to install a 15 KVA transformer to handle one of the larger RTUs and to re route my conduits from the 480 panel to the 208 one and re pull wire.
He's going to give the Mechanical company a number and I'm guessing it's not going to be pretty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
eric7379, Big John, TGGT and 3 others like this.
Dash Dingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 08:53 PM   #17
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

Glad to hear the guy owned it. Takes a special person to own up to the mistakes we make.
MechanicalDVR and Big John like this.
__________________
I've been alive as long as I can remember.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Majewski For This Useful Post:
MWayne (08-19-2016)
Old 08-18-2016, 10:47 PM   #18
Watt Pusher
 
B-Nabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Port Coquitlam, Canada
Posts: 2,161
Rewards Points: 466
Default

Seems like this kind of silliness happens frequently with mechanical equipment. Similar to 220/221, I did a job where they spec'ed a 600V RTU in a building with a 208V service... luckily that got caught before anything shipped.
Majewski likes this.
__________________
Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
B-Nabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2016, 10:50 PM   #19
Big nosed attic troll
 
Majewski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: In a van down by the river!
Posts: 7,544
Rewards Points: 2,774
Default

If there's a human involved you can bet on human error following close behind.
__________________
I've been alive as long as I can remember.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Majewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
300 HP VFD Short Circuit Fault micromind PLCs, VFDs, Motors and Controls 16 08-10-2016 08:50 PM
Another arc fault problem Paul S. General Electrical Discussion 2 06-04-2016 01:29 PM
Ground fault, ship dwong General Electrical Discussion 0 05-22-2016 01:44 PM
Very odd ground fault on 3 phase delta Stew985 Linework 23 05-15-2016 11:58 AM
Arc Fault issues Tim46466 General Electrical Discussion 11 02-12-2016 03:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com