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Old 04-12-2011, 09:57 AM   #101
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I'll give you the Cutler Hammer CH, but that BR is crap and deep down you know it.
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:15 PM   #102
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Thanks to a few of you for the advice, I have a question however, on the metal staple driven too hard, wouldn't that trip the breaker All the time ? not just once a week or so. Same with the neutral to ground issue. I go out to these service calls and 95% of the time I can NOT get them to trip!! We use to take every plug and switch out of the wall to inspect things, after spending hours a house doing that and finding nothing wrong we have stopped wasting our time.
And if there is a smashed wire or N to G problem why would Home Owners be just sitting on their computers or watching TV and then with nothing changing in the circuit it suddenly trips!!! ???
They go out reset the breaker, having changed nothing and everything works fine for a few days or weeks. ??

Charge the Home Owner for service call!? Why? they have done nothing wrong, their house is under warranty, the builder takes their complaints and pass them right to us, and we had better respond (for free!) or the builder will simply send another contractor out to try and find a problem and BACK CHARGE US. Even if they find nothing wrong.

It's getting very frustrating explaining all this to home owners every week as they look at you like you're full off Sh^t.
"Sorry Ma"ma you'll just have to keep running outside in your PJs during the middle of your movie to reset the breaker" " I know there's snow and mud in your new unfinished yard, but think of all the free exercise!"

Meanwhile GE and the likes make how many billion in un taxed profit!!?

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Old 04-12-2011, 09:11 PM   #103
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Another two homeruns added today proudly without AFCI breakers, the customer wanted it that way, i was happy to oblige.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:36 PM   #104
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... just sent out a proposal with 4 new AFCI circuit breaker installation for "the old bx lines" for a service upgrade coming up. I can tell you that I sold them for twice as much as I paid for them at the SH and I'll make this home safer by way of AFCI breakers.
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:31 PM   #105
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Default Arc Fault Neutral question

Do arc fault breakers disconnect the neutral conductor from the circuit, or is it just terminated on the breaker for sensing faults?

I know the theory behind the operation, but not the internal wiring of the device, and have googled a ton to find an internal wiring schematic to no avail.

thanks for your reply!
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Old 05-12-2011, 01:32 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlittle View Post
Do arc fault breakers disconnect the neutral conductor from the circuit, or is it just terminated on the breaker for sensing faults?

I know the theory behind the operation, but not the internal wiring of the device, and have googled a ton to find an internal wiring schematic to no avail.

thanks for your reply!


I was trying to find HR's one time by reading between the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor from the NM. Got fooled by one on an arcfault. So the answer to your question is yes.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:51 PM   #107
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Default Arc Fault

Hi guys, I am new to the forum but I have to tell you, I have never had a problem with arc faults. Just isolate the neutrals and grounds for each circuit and as long as there are no nicks in any wires you'll be fine. In old work situations it can be tedious to do this and costly to the customer. "Whose idea was it to ask us to pull a permit in a 70 year old Victorian adding one receptacle in a bedroom and make it arc fault anyway?"
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:12 PM   #108
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Arc Fault breakers detect arching. How does a CFL light? An internal arc is produced to ignite the internal gasses. Things like these do not work with arc fault breakes. And for the other devices, if the lap top is already on when it is pluged in, it will cause an arc at the recepticle, as soon as it is pluged in.
Its up to use to educate people on how to use things properly.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:36 AM   #109
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I've got a pair of Siemens AFCI breakers installed about a year ago. The HO says that they will trip unexpectedly at random times. Replaced them once or twice with new breakers.

I've spent hours there waiting for them to do so. There is no overload on the circuits and does not seem to be an arc fault. I've checked for anything obvious that would or could cause the tripping. Flicked all the switches like crazy. Turned on everything and gone around plugging in a load to the circuit. No trip for me.

I could not do anything to create or re-create this problem. The owner says that they will just trip at odd times. Sometimes two or three times and then not do it for a while.

I just am at a loss to explain this to the owner and the GC.

This is part bitching and part asking if anyone has advice.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:37 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobFeeJr View Post
Hi guys, I am new to the forum but I have to tell you, I have never had a problem with arc faults. Just isolate the neutrals and grounds for each circuit and as long as there are no nicks in any wires you'll be fine. In old work situations it can be tedious to do this and costly to the customer. "Whose idea was it to ask us to pull a permit in a 70 year old Victorian adding one receptacle in a bedroom and make it arc fault anyway?"

Yea, OK..... Where are you posting from? Is it from the offices of CH BR division sales by any chance?
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:43 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by sandman76 View Post
I've got a pair of Siemens AFCI breakers installed about a year ago. The HO says that they will trip unexpectedly at random times. Replaced them once or twice with new breakers.

I've spent hours there waiting for them to do so. There is no overload on the circuits and does not seem to be an arc fault. I've checked for anything obvious that would or could cause the tripping. Flicked all the switches like crazy. Turned on everything and gone around plugging in a load to the circuit. No trip for me.

I could not do anything to create or re-create this problem. The owner says that they will just trip at odd times. Sometimes two or three times and then not do it for a while.

I just am at a loss to explain this to the owner and the GC.

This is part bitching and part asking if anyone has advice.

Did you know it is really easy to add a script to a computer chip's programming that creates a random trip based on the random of the number of times a light switch is turned on or off? Guess how you detect for a faulty connection that could lead to an arc......
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:12 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
Did you know it is really easy to add a script to a computer chip's programming that creates a random trip based on the random of the number of times a light switch is turned on or off? Guess how you detect for a faulty connection that could lead to an arc......

I do appreciate the reply. I'm just not too sure what this means. Are you saying that the breakers are programmed to trip randomly when the light switch is operated?
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:23 PM   #113
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I will say this: AFCIs are GARBAGE. Sometimes they will trip for no reason at all on a customers new TV, ect. Put a GFCI on the circuit and see if it trips. If it doesnt at least you dont have a continious ground fault. Megger the circuits if you have one. If all is ok try a different brand, but be prepared to run in circles. Keep this in the back of your head, your installing/troubleshooting a technology that is totally half-baked.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:28 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by meadow View Post
I will say this: AFCIs are GARBAGE. Sometimes they will trip for no reason at all on a customers new TV, ect. Put a GFCI on the circuit and see if it trips. If it doesnt at least you dont have a continious ground fault. Megger the circuits if you have one. If all is ok try a different brand, but be prepared to run in circles. Keep this in the back of your head, your installing/troubleshooting a technology that is totally half-baked.
But it does what it was designed to do.. make moiney for the manufacture..
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:45 PM   #115
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But it does what it was designed to do.. make moiney for the manufacture..
We need to have a spelling bee on this site,;however, arc fault circuits generally do their job.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:34 AM   #116
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While I realize that this is an old thread, this guy has put together a very good chart for troubleshooting random tripping of a arc fault breaker. The Circuit Detective








[IMG]http://www.electriciantalk.com/data:image/gif,GIF89a%12%00%12%00%B3%00%00%FF%FF%FF%F7%F7%EF% CC%CC%CC%BD%BE%BD%99%99%99ZYZRUR%00%00%00%FE%01%02 %00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%00%0 0%00%00%00%00!%F9%04%04%14%00%FF%00%2C%00%00%00%00 %12%00%12%00%00%04X0%C8I%2B%1D8%EB%3D%E4%00%60(%8A %85%17%0AG*%8C%40%19%7C%00J%08%C4%B1%92%26z%C76%FE %02%07%C2%89v%F0%7Dz%C3b%C8u%14%82V5%23o%A7%13%19L %BCY-%25%7D%A6l%DF%D0%F5%C7%02%85%5B%D82%90%CBT%87%D8i7 %88Y%A8%DB%EFx%8B%DE%12%01%00%3B[/IMG]
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Old 11-07-2012, 02:51 PM   #117
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Default Latest Gen Cutler-Hammer AFCI

I understand this thread is old, but posting anyway.

Eaton/Cutler-Hammer has their latest generation combination breakers on the market. The combination, as others have wondered previously, are not combination in the sense that they are AFCI and GFCI. The combination in this case is based on the ability to detect different arc faults (parallel for example). So as not to be confused, CH does make a combination AFCI & GFCI unit.

The new generation of CH-type AFCI breakers come standard with an LED light that will provide you with a flashing error code that you can look-up. The BR-type do not come standard with this feature, but you may purchase this as an option.

So far, no problems. We're using the new 200 amps, 60 circuit CH load centers with copper bus and plug-on neutrals, thus elimination the pig tails. They are VERY slick and seem to work quite well.

Also, someone was looking for a schematic of an AFCI...you can find this online as well.
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Old 11-07-2012, 03:44 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black51 View Post
I understand this thread is old, but posting anyway.

Eaton/Cutler-Hammer has their latest generation combination breakers on the market. The combination, as others have wondered previously, are not combination in the sense that they are AFCI and GFCI. The combination in this case is based on the ability to detect different arc faults (parallel for example). So as not to be confused, CH does make a combination AFCI & GFCI unit.

The new generation of CH-type AFCI breakers come standard with an LED light that will provide you with a flashing error code that you can look-up. The BR-type do not come standard with this feature, but you may purchase this as an option.

So far, no problems. We're using the new 200 amps, 60 circuit CH load centers with copper bus and plug-on neutrals, thus elimination the pig tails. They are VERY slick and seem to work quite well.

Also, someone was looking for a schematic of an AFCI...you can find this online as well.
They make good stuff ,,,,Welcome to the forum.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mike Brown View Post
Thanks to a few of you for the advice, I have a question however, on the metal staple driven too hard, wouldn't that trip the breaker All the time ? not just once a week or so. Same with the neutral to ground issue. I go out to these service calls and 95% of the time I can NOT get them to trip!! We use to take every plug and switch out of the wall to inspect things, after spending hours a house doing that and finding nothing wrong we have stopped wasting our time.
And if there is a smashed wire or N to G problem why would Home Owners be just sitting on their computers or watching TV and then with nothing changing in the circuit it suddenly trips!!! ???
They go out reset the breaker, having changed nothing and everything works fine for a few days or weeks. ??

Charge the Home Owner for service call!? Why? they have done nothing wrong, their house is under warranty, the builder takes their complaints and pass them right to us, and we had better respond (for free!) or the builder will simply send another contractor out to try and find a problem and BACK CHARGE US. Even if they find nothing wrong.

It's getting very frustrating explaining all this to home owners every week as they look at you like you're full off Sh^t.
"Sorry Ma"ma you'll just have to keep running outside in your PJs during the middle of your movie to reset the breaker" " I know there's snow and mud in your new unfinished yard, but think of all the free exercise!"

Meanwhile GE and the likes make how many billion in un taxed profit!!?

It's time we send these comments to the product reps. I've come across several calls very similiar and it's not our 'fault'. If the breakers are 'still' not working the way they're designed, the we all should call for a RECALL and the manufactures can pay us to go replace them and the service call time we spend on 'their' problems.

My latest one is with QO style AF.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:03 AM   #120
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As for "Metal staples driven too hard"... then they sould ban metal staples! Not make us install $40.00 breakers! It's 2012 for god's sake... we don't need to use material designed in 1920 just because..."it's what we've always used!" I haven't used metal staples in years! It never made sense to me for romex. Get with the times!
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