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aluminum to copper wire splicing

70K views 109 replies 24 participants last post by  Judoka 
#1 ·
Is anyone working with aluminum romex cable inside homes.

If so, what are you currently using, for your wire splices.

Please provide details in how you go about making splices and connections, to switches and receptacles.

THANKS :thumbsup:
 
#2 ·
I just finished a full remodel that had alot of aluminum wire. You have two options. Buy devices rated for al. or make pigtails with approved wirenut ($5.00 for two) In those house, I did both. I found devices rated for fairly cheap, and used about 30 of those wirenuts total. (some places I had to make joints)
 
#3 ·
I just finished a pig tail job that was partially done by a hack :no:

He cut the wires short and luckily I decided to use Ideal Purples for splicing.

If I had gone with just the devices, the wires would of been a nightmare to get around the terminals :eek:

Purples are only rated for AL/CU connections

According to manufacture not allowed for AL/AL, but I used them for it because better than a standard wire nut :thumbsup:
 
#7 ·
I just finished a pig tail job that was partially done by a hack :no:

He cut the wires short and luckily I decided to use Ideal Purples for splicing.

If I had gone with just the devices, the wires would of been a nightmare to get around the terminals :eek:

Purples are only rated for AL/CU connections

According to manufacture not allowed for AL/AL, but I used them for it because better than a standard wire nut :thumbsup:

I don't understand your thinking. How can something that is "not allowed" be a better option, in any circumstance? When the fire marshall finishes his investigation he will say you used the wrong wire nuts.
 
#4 ·
mcclary's electrical and black4truck

Thanks for your recent post.

I have a some follow up questions, for the two of you.

Did you both used the purple Idea 65 Twist-On?

And was this your your first job, involving aluminum romex cable?




THANKS :thumbsup:
 
#8 ·
I've done several remodels that had aluminum. Don't worry about "disturbing" anything. As long as you've got worenuts approved, you're fine. Just be really careful when stripping. DO NOT knick the condutor with strippers. Al. is much more delicate than copper. If it's knicked, when you put on wirenut it wil break and you may not notice it. of course, don't disturb anything you don't have to.
 
#9 ·
I use regular wire nuts in most cases. I personally don't believe that the wirenuts are the issue. If they were, why don't all the millions of splices fail?

I pull apart AL on a regular basis and generally don't see any issues if it was installed properly.

The issues I see are where someone has changed out the switches/receps with copper devices and where the wire was ringed during stripping and snapped off after it was bent back into the box.

If it's a specific whole house pigtail job, I will reluctantly submit to the scam/hype/liabilty scare and use purple nuts.
 
#10 ·
I use regular wire nuts in most cases. I personally don't believe that the wirenuts are the issue. If they were, why don't all the millions of splices fail?

I pull apart AL on a regular basis and generally don't see any issues if it was installed properly.

The issues I see are where someone has changed out the switches/receps with copper devices and where the wire was ringed during stripping and snapped off after it was bent back into the box.

If it's a specific whole house pigtail job, I will reluctantly submit to the scam/hype/liabilty scare and use purple nuts.
I'm with you!,,,,it's just a wirenut with no-ox inside, however,I think it's got a less aggressive thread pitch, to prevent stripping the soft al. When we're talking about liability, and not to mention the inspectors around here look closely, I ALWAYS use the right wire nut.
 
#22 ·
Idea purple 65 in my opinion will not be the solution to this problem.
And it's rumor to be fill with a flammable oxide-inhibitor.

So I would suggest, short of a re-do over with copper wire, anyone
that is making a aluminum to aluminum or aluminum to copper splice,
should install a AFCI circuit breaker to watch over the aluminum
circuit they have work on.

And even if the home owner original electrical panel, will not support
such a device, a new distribution panel should be installed that would
accommodate such a breaker.

And to go one further, may sure the house has working smoke and C.O.
detectors when you leave the job.

The earlier aluminum romex/NM cable, had an insulation temp. rating
that was lower, then what appear in the seventy's.

My thoughts and opinions are now open for discussion.
 
#24 ·
Wasn't it just awhile back that someone posted a link to an Ideal "marrette" that was rated for Al/Al? It was CSA approved, which is probably good enough. I myself very rarely see aluminum wiring, and when I do, it is usually in a situation where I can rip it out anyway.
 
#27 ·
Come on... isn't this forum supposed to be for 'professionals'??
I get paid to do it, therefore I are a professional :thumbup:

A professional can have his own opinion and not follow the panicked lemmings over the cliff.

When you have installed as much AL wire as I have and when you have reworked as much existing AL wire as I have, get back with me.




I also think that the risks of asbestos, mold and radon (from granite counter tops :laughing:) are highly over exxagerated.
 
#30 ·
I get paid to do it, therefore I are a professional :thumbup:

A professional can have his own opinion and not follow the panicked lemmings over the cliff.

When you have installed as much AL wire as I have and when you have reworked as much existing AL wire as I have, get back with me.


I also think that the risks of asbestos, mold and radon (from granite counter tops :laughing:) are highly over exxagerated.
by that do you mean NEC and other safety codes??

you can certainly have your own opinion on anything, I myself have my own opinion on many NEC codes that I think need revising, but that's different from doing a careless job such as using incorrect nuts for a specific metal in the basis that the way you have done it for many years has not (yet) caused a problem or even a fire!

What makes you think that I haven't done as much or more Al as you have? Do you think that my number of posts in this forum directly relates to my years of experience????

When you go back and inspect all the Al splices that you have done in your career and check that not a single one has become loose, oxidized, carbonized or worse you get back to me..

There are reasons why the NEC safety codes are there. They are the results of many years of research, testing, product development, accidents, fires, deaths, etc.

Choosing to ignore the codes simply because you think they are wrong and you think you know better is extremely unprofessional at best.
 
#31 ·
:eek:Alumiconns are listed for any combination of 2 or 3 wires, #10 or #12 solid AL and solid or stranded #18 to #10 Cu. :blink: They're cheaper than the purple wire nuts if you buy them in quantity, I think the last I got were around $2.50 ea or so - I generally get a least a hundred at a time. The company will let you know who sells locally or who will ship. If you're in an area where you have a lot of aluminum wire try to get a distributer to stock them - they seem to move pretty well once word gets out.

If you do this (electrical work) for a living you already have a torque screwdriver in the tool box - unless you have those calibrated wrists I've read about:whistling2:

The Alumiconns will generally push against the back of the box with careful positioning - makes the difference of getting a GFCI receptacle in or not sometimes. Probably the only thing I'd like to see is a 4 wire version.
 
#32 ·
220/221 some your post friends are talking behind your back on another
form.
Link us !! :thumbup:



What makes you think that I haven't done as much or more Al as you have?
I just get that feeling.

If you had the experience I have you would be less....I don't know....paranoid?


that's different from doing a careless job such as using incorrect nuts for a specific metal
It's not about the metal and it's not about oxidation. Why would one connection out of a thousand/ten thousand fail if that were the case?

Al has issues. The wire nuts are not one of them.

There are reasons why the NEC safety codes are there. They are the results of many years of research, testing, product development, accidents, fires, deaths, etc.
I fully understand the reasons behind all laws. I also know when it's safe to jaywalk.


Choosing to ignore the codes simply because you think they are wrong and you think you know better is extremely unprofessional at best.
Be honest. Which codes do you ignore? Do you tape a #6 wire green? Maybe you use a self tapping SMS to ground an enclousre? Spill it.


Wait....are you that Mike....what's his name.....that used to post under a different name? The teacher/instructor guy who went to the police station and tried to turn himself in for speeding?

What was that clown's name?:jester:
 
#37 ·
Time to bust in on this with some unsound reasoning. As said they probably didn't want to spend the money to have UL test al to al. Why is because they no longer make small alum romex, so why spend money to get listed for al to al? Add on's to existing aluminum wired houses will get new nm-b copper romex, so the listing tested copper mixed with aluminum conductors. As far as the old no-alox burning issue, I did some research once just for the bang of it all. No-alox has a flash point of about 600 deg F as I recall and the insulation on the nm-b has a flash point of over 900 deg F. so yes theoreticlly the no-alox will ignite before the wire will, but how often does either get to 600 F and a breaker doesn't trip someplace? (the degree figures are out of memory, I'm not going back to looking, you can check for yourself and tell me how wrong I am I don't mind, it happens all the time....)
 
#42 ·
No, you do not, and neither do I, and neither does anyone else.
You are misunderstanding. I know the general reason for law, not the specific reasons for every law. Laws are usually very general. They have to be. The more they have to encompass, they more wordy and open to interpetation they become. We all know that the NEC is a fine example of that.

Everyone at some point will violate the law according to their own standards. Everyone. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws and it doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.

You can't fault me simply on the basis that I violate a law if you do the same thing.


there is no point in continuing with this. do as you please
Classic. When you don't have a good answer, you say "nevermind". You know you violate the code on occaision. You know you use an unlisted product on occaision, but if you admit it, you have to concede that I am right :rolleyes:. You can't say that your violation is any more professional than mine, can you?

your instructor turned himself in for speeding? now it all makes sense
Not my instructor. There was a guy named Mike something that used to post on the electrical message boards that claimed to have never viloated the code in any fashion. When pressed, he claimed to have never even violated the speed limit. When pressed further he claimed to have gone to the police station and confessed to speeding. He was obviously lying, don't ya think?

I just think that before I decide to ignore the code based on my 25 years of experience I should consider that 'the code' has a lot more experience and information than I do.:)
Experience isn't the only factor. If that was the case, you would have to follow my instruction because I have 10 years on you :thumbup:

Like every part of life you must make decisions based on input from many sources. If you put your trust in one source it leaves you vulnerable. If electricians wrote the NEC it would be a better guide. When too many engineers, lawyers and manufacturers that get involved the NEC gets murky.


I use products as intened ........... unless it's my own home.
Ok, :laughing:...two things.

1. You use this product (Al connectors) as intended. There are cases when you use a non listed product because you feel it's an acceptable solution.

2. Even if it's your home, the NEC still applies. The NEC is designed to protect the future owners of your home too.



Finally, To newguy Miguel, don't take internet discussion personally until someone calls you a douchebag or something. Remember, it's a
forum to discuss sometimes diffent points of view.
 
#43 · (Edited)
You are misunderstanding. I know the general reason for law, not the specific reasons for every law. Laws are usually very general. They have to be. The more they have to encompass, they more wordy and open to interpetation they become. We all know that the NEC is a fine example of that.

Everyone at some point will violate the law according to their own standards. Everyone. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws and it doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.

You can't fault me simply on the basis that I violate a law if you do the same thing.




Classic. When you don't have a good answer, you say "nevermind". You know you violate the code on occaision. You know you use an unlisted product on occaision, but if you admit it, you have to concede that I am right :rolleyes:. You can't say that your violation is any more professional than mine, can you?



Not my instructor. There was a guy named Mike something that used to post on the electrical message boards that claimed to have never viloated the code in any fashion. When pressed, he claimed to have never even violated the speed limit. When pressed further he claimed to have gone to the police station and confessed to speeding. He was obviously lying, don't ya think?



Experience isn't the only factor. If that was the case, you would have to follow my instruction because I have 10 years on you :thumbup:

Like every part of life you must make decisions based on input from many sources. If you put your trust in one source it leaves you vulnerable. If electricians wrote the NEC it would be a better guide. When too many engineers, lawyers and manufacturers that get involved the NEC gets murky.




Ok, :laughing:...two things.

1. You use this product (Al connectors) as intended. There are cases when you use a non listed product because you feel it's an acceptable solution.

2. Even if it's your home, the NEC still applies. The NEC is designed to protect the future owners of your home too.



Finally, To newguy Miguel, don't take internet discussion personally until someone calls you a douchebag or something. Remember, it's a
forum to discuss sometimes diffent points of view.
again, there is no point in continuing with this because no matter what i say, you will continue to ignore the NEC code on the basis that you think you know better than the code... if you don't see this as unprofessional, then there is nothing else I can tell you.

you are already 'fossilized' in your beliefs and no one's going to change you.
 
#47 ·
It's amazing to me that I am actually getting a hard time about advocating using the correct products to work with AL NM wiring, which is the wiring method with the worst overall history of safety. One of you actully compared an AL termination with taping a 6 AWG green? Yeah thats the same thing, that green tape starts lots of fires. :no:

Where do AL problems start?

Usually at the terminations.

What am I advocating?

Making those terminations carefully and correctly.

Boy I must be some sort of real asshole. :blink:

Hey you all want to use regular wire nuts on your customers work thats none of my concern. Black4Truck asked how I would do it, I answered, you all can do whatever you want. :whistling2:
 
#53 ·
It's amazing to me that I am actually getting a hard time about advocating using the correct products to work with AL NM wiring
I'm not trying to give you a hard time :no:

I was only joking about the side jobs, speeding, and taxes :whistling2:

You really are a sensitive guy :laughing:
 
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