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Old 03-04-2016, 06:52 AM   #1
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Default Neon Sign in Residential Dwelling Unit

I have just been asked by a designer to wire a remoted transformer in a crawl space, with two 1/2 inch greenfield leads to a skeleton tubing neon sign in the game room just above. Having never hard wired for this type of installation before I went right to article 600 to see what the code requirement would be. The secondary voltage of the transformer for the sign is 9000 volts so I started reading in 600.32 and believe I found the deal breaker in 600.32 ( i ) which states, Equipment having an open circuit voltage exceeding 1000 volts shall not be installed in or on dwelling occupancies. I believe the code is referring to the secondary output voltage of the transformer when it says "open circuit voltage".
If anyone could confirm that my interpretation is correct, I want to have my ducks in a row as I am about to say no to the signs instalation and create a lot of unhappy faces. Thanks

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Old 03-04-2016, 07:29 AM   #2
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Default rutt roo....

Quote:
(I) Dwelling Occupancies. Equipment having an open cir-
cuit voltage exceeding 1000 volts shall not be installed in
or on dwelling occupancies.
Could it be you've just trashed every dwelling store front from sea to freakin' shinin' sea A6...? ~CS~
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Old 03-04-2016, 07:51 AM   #3
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You best ask your inspector. Im not sure how it works in States but here we can get field approvals for equipment that isnt ULC or CSA certified... Maybe he would allow it that way.

And if that isn't an option, get the designer to switch to LED 'neon' tubes

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Old 03-04-2016, 08:10 AM   #4
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Could it be you've just trashed every dwelling store front from sea to freakin' shinin' sea A6...? ~CS~

I don't feel I have "trashed" anything, I am just asking a group of trade professionals their take on the wording and intent of the written code, so that I might make the proper interpretation of the code.
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:03 AM   #5
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I have always considered that it means no neon in dwellings if the secondary output of the neon transformer is 1,000 volts or greater.


They make led's that look pretty close nowadays.
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:48 PM   #6
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What kind of conductors were you planning to use? I don't recall ever seeing 9000v. conductors in flex.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:50 PM   #7
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What is the meaning of 'open circuit voltage' here?

~CS~
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:09 PM   #8
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What is the meaning of 'open circuit voltage' here?

~CS~
No load voltage.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:22 PM   #9
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I was hopin' for something along the lines of 'exposed contacts' Joe.....~CS~
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:47 PM   #10
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What kind of conductors were you planning to use? I don't recall ever seeing 9000v. conductors in flex.
During my career as maintenance supervisor for a chain of stores, every neon conductor was routed from the transformer to the sign can with greenfield, including voltages in excess of 14,000. It's common practice.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:16 AM   #11
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During my career as maintenance supervisor for a chain of stores, every neon conductor was routed from the transformer to the sign can with greenfield, including voltages in excess of 14,000. It's common practice.
Whats a greenfield?

GTO wire (15KV rating) is standard for neons. You can also run any wire you like in a GTO sleeving (like a stiff heat shrink). As far as conduit usually liquidtight metallic flex but the lenght has to be limited due to capacitance effect.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-Dough View Post
Whats a greenfield?

GTO wire (15KV rating) is standard for neons. You can also run any wire you like in a GTO sleeving (like a stiff heat shrink). As far as conduit usually liquidtight metallic flex but the lenght has to be limited due to capacitance effect.

Greenfield is the metal armor jacket on MC and Bx.
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:26 PM   #13
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Greenfield is the metal armor jacket on MC and Bx.
Well..........almost.
They look alike, but greenfield is not the same as bx. Bx doesn't have the continuity that greenfield does nor the flexibility. BX is just a wrap over wires where greenfield is a flexible conduit.
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Old 03-08-2016, 03:53 PM   #14
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Well..........almost.
They look alike, but greenfield is not the same as bx. Bx doesn't have the continuity that greenfield does nor the flexibility. BX is just a wrap over wires where greenfield is a flexible conduit.

Does it really have to be that specific ? I'm sure the description I gave is adequate for someone that asks what 'greenfield' is. Do you honestly think the armor on bx and mc made by one manufacturer is different ? And YES I KNOW THEY COME IN STEEL JACKET AND ALUMINUM !!
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Old 03-09-2016, 01:30 PM   #15
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Bx was a slang name for Mc back in the day when it was made by the Bronx wire Company of New York. Mech D , like myself is an old timer and that's what we all called it just like we still call and nm romex been calling that stuff that way for 35 years now we have to be politically correct I guess like everything else
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Old 03-09-2016, 08:39 PM   #16
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I'd always heard that "x" stands for experimental, and that type "ax" didn't work out, sometime around the year 1900
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Old 03-09-2016, 11:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by RGH View Post
Bx was a slang name for Mc back in the day when it was made by the Bronx wire Company of New York. Mech D , like myself is an old timer and that's what we all called it just like we still call and nm romex been calling that stuff that way for 35 years now we have to be politically correct I guess like everything else


TRUE

That is the way of " BX "

We will always call it that ....

Like the steel heavy Greenfield of the old days ...Man is that heavy ...

can not mistake it to the stuff today , or the weight .


I will always SAVE all old GREENFIELD , it is really a different Product
than other stuff you will find in the market with way better Qualities ...

Charge more for it ... Top Quality . Better for certain Work .



Don

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Old 03-10-2016, 12:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Mech Diver View Post
Greenfield is the metal armor jacket on MC and Bx.


Take it from a Real Old Timer , " Greenfield " the old stuff . is a " Heavy Gauge Steel Wrapped / corogate Pipe /tube / flex / system

Kinda explain it .

Very Heavy in weight and content / steel and thick gauge /hard to cut .

The best product out there by far .

It is sold empty / so wire is added later / different grounding rules apply /

always better to pull a Ground with it /


Oh when you Find It on Jobs ...RIP IT OUT AND PUT IT ON TRUCK !!!

RESTOCK ON TRUCK .

LOVE THAT STUFF .



Don

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Old 03-10-2016, 12:26 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mech Diver View Post
Does it really have to be that specific ? I'm sure the description I gave is adequate for someone that asks what 'greenfield' is. Do you honestly think the armor on bx and mc made by one manufacturer is different ? And YES I KNOW THEY COME IN STEEL JACKET AND ALUMINUM !!



WE RIB ANYBODY ....


FIRE AWAY


MAN THE GUNS


FILL THE BEER

FILL THE BEER

FILL THE BEER



Don
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGH View Post
Bx was a slang name for Mc back in the day when it was made by the Bronx wire Company of New York. Mech D , like myself is an old timer and that's what we all called it just like we still call and nm romex been calling that stuff that way for 35 years now we have to be politically correct I guess like everything else

To me BX was always conductors with maybe a thin aluminum wannabe ground in steel armor, MC was always conductors with a copper ground conductor usually in aluminum jacket. Not sure your idea back in the day. Did they have bx on the wagontrain west ?
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