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Old 11-07-2019, 12:25 AM   #1
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Default New panel upgrade

I am in a process of upgrading a panel and I just want to share it with everyone to get any feedback.

Currently they have a 100A main panel feeding a sub panel. XLPE #1 AL single phase. Underground feed to a christy box thru the driveway in 1 1/2 EMT.

They are buying a spa/pool combo which requires 50A/60A total of 110A so I am upgrading panel to 200A

According to my calculations I can fit (3) 3/0 Copper THHN and a #6 ground in a 1 1/2 EMT which will put me right under the required 40% conduit fill for a 200A panel.

House has no grounding. I plan on running a #4 bare ground (according to 250.66) to (2) ground rods 6 feet apart from each other to the main water pipe.

Basically I just want to know if all this is correct and up to code since it will get inspected. As well as any feedback, tips, advice, etc. Anything is appreciate.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:11 AM   #2
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Sounds right. Double check everything and do a clean job. Some locales no longer require connection to plumbing pipe. Ask the inspector.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #3
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I used an online calculator and the raceway is too small?

Are you using EMT underground?
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:12 AM   #4
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I used an online calculator and the raceway is too small?

Are you using EMT underground?
I also was wondering about EMT underground but it seems you can if it is corrosion protected and suitable for the environment. Maybe some areas have an EMT rated for underground but not in NY. Under a driveway #80 PVC or RMC.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:18 AM   #5
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I also was wondering about EMT underground but it seems you can if it is corrosion protected and suitable for the environment. Maybe some areas have an EMT rated for underground but not in NY. Under a driveway #80 PVC or RMC.
I know it’s ok with concrete, I just don’t remember the being underground part.

I guess you could use raintight fittings, I never really thought about it before.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:52 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
I used an online calculator and the raceway is too small?

Are you using EMT underground?
Yes it is EMT. The back of the panel is in the garage and the walls are open so I see the EMT going down. I don’t see it under the concrete going thru the drive way it might transition to pvc but doubt it. There’s a bunch of dirt in the christy box. I am going to dig it up to make sure.

Not sure which calculator you used. I used the south wire conduit fill app. For copper THHN (3) 3/0 and #6 ground I got 39.73% fill in 1 1/2 emt.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:01 AM   #7
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Not sure which calculator you used. I used the south wire conduit fill app. For copper THHN (3) 3/0 and #6 ground I got 39.73% fill in 1 1/2 emt.
That’s odd, every one I checked came up with 2” except Southwire.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:43 PM   #8
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So, you have an existing 100a. service, feeding a sub panel. The existing service is fed underground by a 1-1/2" EMT, w/#1 awg AL to a box, and through the driveway? If the existing service lateral is in EMT, you're not going to pull it out. EMT rots underground, even galvanized.
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Old 11-07-2019, 09:49 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by joebanana View Post
So, you have an existing 100a. service, feeding a sub panel. The existing service is fed underground by a 1-1/2" EMT, w/#1 awg AL to a box, and through the driveway? If the existing service lateral is in EMT, you're not going to pull it out. EMT rots underground, even galvanized.
Not only that, would your poco allow old EMT to remain when doing a service upgrade? I would highly doubt it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:03 PM   #10
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The EMT is probably a sleeve for protection until it goes under ground and then the cable is directly buried. In that case you cannot use THHN or THWN. Try keeping XLPE and use 4/0 AL. if allowed.
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Old Yesterday, 12:20 AM   #11
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Not only that, would your poco allow old EMT to remain when doing a service upgrade? I would highly doubt it.
Ah hell nah! PVC always. I don't think the original install was ever inspected. No ground? I want to know how they talked the POCO into a hook-up.
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Old Yesterday, 12:29 AM   #12
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The EMT is probably a sleeve for protection until it goes under ground and then the cable is directly buried. In that case you cannot use THHN or THWN. Try keeping XLPE and use 4/0 AL. if allowed.
PG&E would never go for direct bury service lateral. They require conduit to the meter.
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Old Yesterday, 12:37 AM   #13
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No way I would use EMT underground now, but some you guys is younger than me. It was done in oldy days , back when pvc wasn't accepted by some locations yet. We used a whole lot of lap seal on it, and then tape. Three wraps an inch. I bet those old runs are still there, just tape now and powdered rust.
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Old Today, 01:32 AM   #14
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PG&E would never go for direct bury service lateral. They require conduit to the meter.
Conduit all the way has much better protection but some power companies allow direct burial. Some even prefer it in rural areas. It is easier to fix if a fence post goes through it. It is also easier to damage it,
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Old Today, 04:00 AM   #15
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This isn't gonna happen.

PGE, Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, Etc.... None will allow you to do what you're proposing.

The second you need to "Upgrade/Alter" the service, you will be required to upgrade the underground. That means a 3" PVC conduit buried 36" deep to the top of the conduit, a base layer of sand below the conduit, a layer of sand above it, and you may not even be able to backfill with the soil you trenched out.

PGE did have direct burial back in the day, but they will no longer allow you to use it on an upgrade. The EMT and even/GRC, is typically just a sleeve where the PVC or DB comes up through the foundation or ground. The soil will just eat the GRC and EMT to nothing in no time.
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Old Today, 05:13 AM   #16
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Conduit all the way has much better protection but some power companies allow direct burial. Some even prefer it in rural areas. It is easier to fix if a fence post goes through it. It is also easier to damage it,
Not out here. When the POCO comes out to pull in the feeds, and there isn't a conduit, they leave. They're not going to trench for a DB lateral.
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Old Today, 02:32 PM   #17
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According to the NEC it won’t fit.
EMT area .814
Conductor area .8544


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