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Old 04-19-2009, 08:56 AM   #1
 
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I have a question that the answer may seem obvious. I install generators for a generator company, the technician for the company is telling me I have to run 2 seperate conduits going from the ATS to the generator, one for control wires and one for feed wires from generator to ATS, All the years I been in this trade which is 24 total every application where I had feed wires and control wires I was able to run them in same conduit as long as the control wire was rated for 600 volts Thhn or Thwn with no interferance. Also to make it more confusing on my behalf the conduit that would have the control wires in it also has a 240 volt feed coming from the ATS control circuit, control voltage is 24 volts. The tech also try to tell me that the last electrician installed a generator system the same way I was going to, and the tech said he had 110 volts to neutral on the control wires even though they weren;t tied in on either end all due to the feed wires being in the same conduit coming from generator.
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:59 AM   #2
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I've always run three seperate conduits for generators, and never really thought twice about it.

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Old 04-19-2009, 09:00 AM   #3
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By the way welcome to the forum.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:02 AM   #4
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Welcome to the forum!
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:09 AM   #5
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Welcome.

Did you read 725.136?
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:13 AM   #6
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There are times when the NEC will allow mixing the control and power conductors between a genset and the ATS. However as time goes on more often then not the generator instructions prohibit it.

Like the others I just run an extra conduit and move on.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:25 AM   #7
 
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gererators were doing now got 3 conduits coming out ; feeders and a control pipe to ATS. and a pipe to a monitor type thingy for a cat-6.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:27 AM   #8
 
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oh yeah, 1 pipe to the ECO
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:28 AM   #9
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Guardian Generators sells a "pre-packaged" unit that has control and feeder cables in the same flexible conduit. They used to say more than 5 feet needed 2 seperate conduits. Now they say it is 30 feet and you need 2 seperate conduits. I think it has to more with their UL listing than anything else. I did a generator last year where I ran 70 feet with cables in one pipe. The job passed inspection just fine.

I even called Tech Support and asked about 2 conduits for me and "all in one conduit" for them. Tech guy said it was Local Codes

Last edited by B4T; 04-19-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Welcome.

Did you read 725.136?
we are still on 05 code book and that section is not listed.. what does it say?
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:15 AM   #11
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725.136 Separation from Electric Light, Power, Class 1, Non–Power-Limited Fire Alarm Circuit Conductors, and Medium-Power Network-Powered Broadband Communications Cables.

(A) General. Cables and conductors of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall not be placed in any cable, cable tray, compartment, enclosure, manhole, outlet box, device box, raceway, or similar fitting with conductors of electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm circuits, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits unless permitted by 725.136(B) through (I).

(B) Separated by Barriers. Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall be permitted to be installed together with the conductors of electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits where they are separated by a barrier.

(C) Raceways Within Enclosures. In enclosures, Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall be permitted to be installed in a raceway to separate them from Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits.

(D) Associated Systems Within Enclosures. Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors in compartments, enclosures, device boxes, outlet boxes, or similar fittings shall be permitted to be installed with electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits where they are introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, and where (1) or (2) applies:

(1) The electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are routed to maintain a minimum of 6 mm (0.25 in.) separation from the conductors and cables of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits.

(2) The circuit conductors operate at 150 volts or less to ground and also comply with one of the following:

a. The Class 2 and Class 3 circuits are installed using Type CL3, CL3R, or CL3P or permitted substitute cables, provided these Class 3 cable conductors extending beyond the jacket are separated by a minimum of 6 mm (0.25 in.) or by a nonconductive sleeve or nonconductive barrier from all other conductors.

b. The Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors are installed as a Class 1 circuit in accordance with 725.41.

(E) Enclosures with Single Opening. Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors entering compartments, enclosures, device boxes, outlet boxes, or similar fittings shall be permitted to be installed with Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits where they are introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and Class 3 circuits. Where Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors must enter an enclosure that is provided with a single opening, they shall be permitted to enter through a single fitting (such as a tee), provided the conductors are separated from the conductors of the other circuits by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor, such as flexible tubing.

(F) Manholes. Underground Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors in a manhole shall be permitted to be installed with Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuits where one of the following conditions is met:

(1) The electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are in a metal-enclosed cable or Type UF cable.

(2) The Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors are permanently and effectively separated from the conductors of other circuits by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor, such as flexible tubing, in addition to the insulation or covering on the wire.

(3) The Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors are permanently and effectively separated from conductors of the other circuits and securely fastened to racks, insulators, or other approved supports.

(G) Cable Trays. Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors shall be permitted to be installed in cable trays, where the conductors of the electric light, Class 1, and non–power-limited fire alarm circuits are separated by a solid fixed barrier of a material compatible with the cable tray or where the Class 2 or Class 3 circuits are installed in Type MC cable.

(H) In Hoistways. In hoistways, Class 2 or Class 3 circuit conductors shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or electrical metallic tubing. For elevators or similar equipment, these conductors shall be permitted to be installed as provided in 620.21.

(I) Other Applications. For other applications, conductors of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits shall be separated by at least 50 mm (2 in.) from conductors of any electric light, power, Class 1 non–power-limited fire alarm or medium power network-powered broadband communications circuits unless one of the following conditions is met:

(1) Either (a) all of the electric light, power, Class 1, non–power-limited fire alarm and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors or (b) all of the Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors are in a raceway or in metal-sheathed, metal-clad, non–metallic-sheathed, or Type UF cables.

(2) All of the electric light, power, Class 1 non–power-limited fire alarm, and medium-power network-powered broadband communications circuit conductors are permanently separated from all of the Class 2 and Class 3 circuit conductors by a continuous and firmly fixed nonconductor, such as porcelain tubes or flexible tubing, in addition to the insulation on the conductors.
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:29 AM   #12
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Chris.. thanks for posting 725-136
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:49 AM   #13
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by william1978 View Post
I've always run three seperate conduits for generators, and never really thought twice about it.
Thanks for responding: This generator is only a 17kw for residential, with a 65 amp breaker within generator. My load side of ATS wires going out to generator feeding 65 amp breaker is in one conduit, I still to understand why you can put contol wire raterd at 600 volts in same conduit. Alot of generators that supply there own ATS comes with a piece of seal tite or some kind of flex conduit with line and control wires in same flex ! whats the diference?

Thanks Big B
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:08 AM   #14
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Does the manufacture's instruction prohibit it?
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
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I still to understand why you can put contol wire raterd at 600 volts in same conduit.
Well assuming the manufacturer does not prohibit it you still have to comply for the rules for class 2 wiring (the control wires are very likely class 2 wiring, the specifications will tell you this) Class 2 wiring must be run separately from power wiring regardless of the insulation rating unless you somehow comply with 2008 725.136 as posted, it exists in earlier codes as 725.55 or there abouts.

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Alot of generators that supply there own ATS comes with a piece of seal tite or some kind of flex conduit with line and control wires in same flex !
That has nothing to do with what the NEC allows

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whats the difference?
Only a factory and a UL or other NRTL listing.
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