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Old 03-14-2019, 11:31 AM   #1
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Hey everyone Iím quoting a job to wire 2 125amp 3p 460v air compressors. The job is to Pipe 300 ft of 3 EMT (set screw) from 1600A 460v main service, up wall and across ceiling across mostly existing trapeze with room. Need to build six more trapeze, mount a couple pull boxes, 5 radius 90s, down a wall into 2 200 amp knife switches and then run a 2 inch run to each unit approx 50 ft. 6 3/0 then with a 4 thhn in the 3 inch run, 3 3/0 with a 4 in the 2 inch. Starters built in to the atlas copacos. Iím trying to get an idea of what other people think for man hours. Yes I know this is vague. Itís a little bigger than Iím used to, so I love the input. Ceiling is bar joist at 24 ft, itís a turbine overhaul facility.
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:34 PM   #2
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How are you getting up to the 24'? Scissor lift?
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:52 PM   #3
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I am just totally ballparking this I'd map this out task by task day by day but I could see this being 100 man hours.

I usually guess 100 man hours. If the number's way off at least the math is easy to do in my head.
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:16 PM   #4
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I am just totally ballparking this I'd map this out task by task day by day but I could see this being 100 man hours.

I usually guess 100 man hours. If the number's way off at least the math is easy to do in my head.
I was at 80 I just didnít know if thatís crazy high.
And yes facility has lift onsite. Materials are 14k
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:58 PM   #5
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Every place I've worked has a "productivity factor". You lose time for permits, availability to the area, distance from office/tool crib, safety meetings and rules, etc. They are all different, and can vary quite a bit from site to site. It's rare to get 7 hours of work out of an 8 hour day any more. A few places are in the 3-4 hour ball park. Some are 5, and a couple are 6.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:01 PM   #6
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Is the floor completely clear where you will be using the lift?

Is there anyone else using the lift when you'd want it?

Are you planning to do this work when they in operation and have people on the floor working?
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:17 PM   #7
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Is the floor completely clear where you will be using the lift?

The main path is mostly clear. The compressor air room is tight.

Is there anyone else using the lift when you'd want it?

In my contract no

Are you planning to do this work when they in operation and have people on the floor working?
Yes will need to be careful and weekend shut down to tie in main.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:19 PM   #8
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Every place I've worked has a "productivity factor". You lose time for permits, availability to the area, distance from office/tool crib, safety meetings and rules, etc. They are all different, and can vary quite a bit from site to site. It's rare to get 7 hours of work out of an 8 hour day any more. A few places are in the 3-4 hour ball park. Some are 5, and a couple are 6.
Very true thank you. My favorite is when you realize the facility manager is a complete psychopath once youíre started. This guy however is pretty cool.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:25 PM   #9
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Yes will need to be careful and weekend shut down to tie in main.
I've been burned with those type issues before.

So some of the job cost will be overtime hours?
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:26 PM   #10
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Very true thank you. My favorite is when you realize the facility manager is a complete psychopath once youíre started. This guy however is pretty cool.
So far he is!
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:24 PM   #11
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So far he is!
You seem to know what I mean LOL.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:39 PM   #12
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"...up wall and across ceiling across mostly existing trapeze with room..."

No issues with the imposed load -- weight-wise...

I would run twin 2" runs all the way.

Breaking out conductors 3" to 2" is not my style.

After all, even pulling these puppies in can be a chore.

Down the road, the customer ought to have the option of leaving one unit running while the other system is totally re-configured.

I also would look into whether they intend to have a DRYER to pull the moisture out of the pneumatic flow. You'd best ask. Many fellas assume that you're hip to this requirement. Major industrial plants that use a LOT of air almost always dry it out first. Water vapor screws up tools and paint jobs.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:43 PM   #13
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You seem to know what I mean LOL.
Oh brother, been there done that too many times.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:49 PM   #14
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Tesla you have me thinking
How does one calculate the weight load vs limit. There is parallel 4 inch emts with 400 amp copper inside each resting on deep strut which hangs from 3/8 rod... may have to go with all new trapeze. You find the time to run another 300 ft of pipe is better than pulling 6 and ground in 1?
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:52 PM   #15
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And there is a dryer. Nothing changing there for now.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:55 PM   #16
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You can look up the rating of the ones they used, but 3/8" threaded rod beam clamps usually will carry at least 500 pounds. If the trapeze is near the weight limit, you can always add a rod.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:05 PM   #17
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Copper dominates the weight... and its weight can be calc'd by its kCMIL and distance between supports. Crudely, the EMT will weigh about as one of the feeder conductors... at the most.

Do a quick calc to see if the system has spare capacity (weight) -- if not set additional all-thread drops// anchors.

Keep in mind that some traps are dropping from a truss that has its own weight limit.

For the project at hand, with so much copper up there, I'd have to run the numbers before cranking out an estimate.

As for the (1) 3" vs (2) 2" -- think about your tugger and sheaves. For me, tugging into 2" goes slicker than snot. If you've got the gear to quickly pull into 3" -- things might pencil out differently for you.

The last time I faced a retro-fit upgrade somewhat like this project the office was in love with Big Pipe and breaking out the daughter runs -- which is what you're proposing. It was a bit%$#. It would've gone three times faster with idiot-simple 1" EMT. The attempt to use existing raceway capacity was a disaster... wa-a-a-a-a-ay too slow. A bunch of #4s just shot through 1" -- and didn't need a tugger.

I love Big Pipe in the underground// underslab. I love dedicated (smaller) runs for RTU, motor loads, and such... especially if I can get away with 1" EMT or smaller. Pulling 7 wires up, over and down... often proves to be a hassle. You don't even get to save on the grounding // bonding conductor as parallel hots demands that such a wire be up-sized... largely eliminating any savings.

You'll also discover -- in the labor rate books -- that running parallel EMT is much faster than twice running a solo EMT raceway. You'll find that running 3" EMT is nowhere near as fast as running 2", too.

But, it's close. You'll have advocates for both gambits.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:27 AM   #18
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Labor units are never "vague"
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:28 AM   #19
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Labor units are never "vague"
So how many man hours would you figure?
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:41 AM   #20
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"...up wall and across ceiling across mostly existing trapeze with room..."
I would run twin 2" runs all the way.

Breaking out conductors 3" to 2" is not my style.
@WPNortheast did you pencil it out both ways? The more I think about it I'd rather do two 2" than one 3" in this case.
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