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100 amp service and Level 2 chargers

CEC 
28K views 80 replies 12 participants last post by  bob_says_hello 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been pricing most 7kW level 2 charger installs with a requirement to upgrade the service if it's 100 amps.

Say it's a 2500 sqft home with electric range, a/c, and dryer. I don't even bother doing a load calc anymore because it's always just over capacity, not by much but still over.
I just got a call from a client I quoted to install their level 2 Tesla charger but I told them that they required a service upgrade.
He says that I tried to rip him off because he just got the work done by another EC, kept the existing 100 amp service and passed inspection. Now he threatens to write a bad review.



This clients load calc came in at 108 amps.
2600sqft home, 6kw range, 3.8kw AC, 7.7kw Ev charger, 5.7kw dryer.


What did I miss here? Does the Tesla charger have some sort of variable amperage? I read something about that once. maybe the other EC adjusted the settings to lower the load?
 
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#2 ·
Are you talking about the outlet that they can plug their car into, or the Tesla Wall Connector?

The Wall Connector is variable. As full output is uses 80A and requires a 100A breaker.

The outlet is a 50A outlet and breaker, but the actual output has been lowered down to 32A. It was at 40A originally, I guess they wanted to sell more Wall Connectors so they handicapped the simple outlet charging feature.

As for the customer, I would talk it out with him. See if he wants to get the inspector involved. That should curb his bad review nonsense.
 
#3 ·
I've never had the pleasure of installing a Telsa unit yet. yes it was to install a 14-50 receptacle. The charger output is 32amps. Can the plug in version chargers be dialed down or just the hardwired version?
I'm thinking this other EC dialed it down to 24 amps and put it on a 30 amp breaker?
I dont know how else it would pass.
 
#5 · (Edited)
The ones with the 14-50 are nothing different than running a circuit for a range. It's the more expensive one that has the ability to dial down the current draw.

While its code, and not a bad idea to do a load calc, I think the numbers tend to be a bit conservative on the high side of actual residential consumption.
 
#9 ·
That's the point I tried to make above.

The customer wants an EC that is going to advocate for them, not the government or the for-profit corporations.

As you mentioned yourself, load calcs are high. In reality, they are just guesses. I think it's fair to say that in NDC's situation that homeowner will end up running his car charger without issue.

NDC was innocent in what he did, but the homeowner still feels like NDC was trying to sell him on something that he didn't really need.

That's why explaining the situation and letting the customer make the decision is a better option, IMO.
 
#10 ·
If you can show on paper the calc shows you needed the upgrade, it might be worth the time. Not much you can do if he still is going to post a negative review. I admire you guys that can separate your business from yourselves. I've stayed away from anything that involves leaving reviews and the like.
 
#12 ·
I have come to believe that sized-to-code services are way oversized. Tell the customer that there is a chance that the charger will be too much for his service but you'd be happy to note that they refused an upgrade and install it anyway. Make the load calc do whatever is necessary to pass the inspection.
 
#18 ·
Ive installed several of the tesla wall connectors. On half of them we did a 200 amp service upgrade. On the other half we installed a load shedder. DCC is a brand name of them.

Yes, the tesla chargers can be dialed down. But remember, even on the lowest setting, it's still twice as fast as the 120 volt charger that comes with the car. you're not talking about a tesla charger though.

If the client doesn't want a service upgrade tell them they need a load shedder. If they still argue it isn't worth your time IMO.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
 
#33 ·
Question,
Rule 8-104.
86-304 Disconnecting means
1) A separate disconnecting means shall be provided for each installation of electric vehicle supply
equipment rated at 60 A or more, or more than 150 volts-to-ground.


I would add a disconnect to any hard wired connector but I'm wondering if this 60 amps is the breaker rating or the unit rating?
 

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#43 ·
"You should really upgrade your electrical service since the load calc says you need over 100A. A service upgrade will benefit you in many different ways, especially with future electric cars or larger chargers, such as the Tesla Wall Connector.

If you don't want to spend the money on a service upgrade, we can still install the charger, but you may have to limit what you do. For example, charge your car at night while the range and dryer aren't being used.

If the main breaker trips, you know why. I make no guarantees, I really think you should upgrade the service."
 
#47 ·
Other reason for an upgrade is incase they want to install a receptacle for their friends to plug a charger into. This is the reason one client went for the 200 amp service upgrade over the load shedder. Thinking ahead. And now that tesla has released a wall connector with a 14-50 cord cap it makes sense. Bring a 14-50 extension cord and that wall connector and charge at your friends place, and all he needs is a 14-50 receptacle.
 
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#51 ·
That thing isn’t a wall connector. The wall connector is a charger like device that mounts to the wall.

The mobile connector is the one that comes with the car and plugs into an outlet.

The mobile connector used to require a 50 amp feed and it actually pulled 40 A. Since then they lowered the draw to 32 A but still require the same 50 amp feed.
 
#52 · (Edited)
That thing isn’t a wall connector. The wall connector is a charger like device that mounts to the wall.



The mobile connector is the one that comes with the car and plugs into an outlet.



The mobile connector used to require a 50 amp feed and it actually pulled 40 A. Since then they lowered the draw to 32 A but still require the same 50 amp feed.
We are not talking about the one that comes with the car. We're talking about this one below.

 
#54 ·
I see.

That will charge at 40A unlike the new mobile connector which only charges at 32A. Other than that, I don't see the benefit. And for $500 it's the same price as the wall connector which charges up to 80A.

Another thing that I find odd is this: "The Wall Connector with 14-50 Plug Tesla launched this week remains a portable unit, but it ships with a NEMA 14-50 plug on the end of a 24-inch cable.". The NEC requires a cord no longer than 12" (which makes them a real pain in the ass when installing outdoors with an in-use cover). Yet it seems like it will be available in America.
 
#55 ·
Yes, the hard wired version will provide a current of up to 80 amps, but currently, the vehicles accept up to 48 amps (Model 3) and 40 or 32 amps for most of the other vehicles, making it pointless to get an 80 amp charger right now.

And as the article says, it's more geared towards those who want something not so permanent, such as those renting. Getting a receptacle installed is much easier than getting something installed that will require an electrician to remove when you move.

A 14-50 receptacle will be a renting feature for someone looking to rent. A wire capped in a box, that will require an electrician and a permit to install their charger... Not so much.
 
#65 ·
#66 ·
Interesting.

According to 8-106(10), demonstrated load can not be used for dwellings. When the 2015 OESC first came out, in the update they described the new demonstrated load terminology as something you could use for fast food restaurants and stuff like that. Like say you often wire Tim Hortons and for a new job, you could used the demonstrated load from the last job to quickly do a load calculation even though on paper it would require a larger service.
 
#72 ·
I'll be happy when they finally adopt the 2018 C.E.C. here in B.C. Until then in order to pull a permit for an E.V.Charger we have to complete a variance form on top of receiving an installation permit.B.C. Technical feels this process is necessary because of the lack of info in relation to E.V. charging in the 2015 code. Once the 2018 is adopted the variance will no longer be required.
 
#76 ·
Do the load calc and show it to the customer.
Give them the option to upgrade OR to install a Load Miser /Shedder.
Check out the Tesla website for detailed instructions on thier chargers.
they have a selector switch inside that allows you to set the current draw from 32-80A FLA.
They also have a chart of KM/1hr of charge time for all models at all the different given charging amperages
Find out the model, how far it can go on a full charge, how many hours per evening it will be able to charge and you can calculate the rate of charge (and ampacity) required.
THEN you can do your load calc and determine if they need an upgrade or load miser.
It sounds complicated but its not.
Download the charts from tesla and keep them on your phone.
If its a basic house, you should be able to to a load calc from memory in about 5min OR go to http://www.codemath.com/cgi-bin/Run.pl?script=Cec8_200 for thier load calculator.
Based on 2012 CEC, but I'm pretty sure those rules haven't changed since then.
 
#78 ·
What did I miss here?
Apparently a crappy client. Congrats! And when they try to leave a bad review, contact the agency in charge of the review and ask them for proof that you did work for this "reviewer". a few bad reviews also makes it look like you have more than just your family leaving you the 5 star reviews.

It's your company and your company standards that the customer failed to understand- not you.
 
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