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Old 02-12-2019, 10:00 AM   #1
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Default 200A panel but 100A service

This is a weird situation. I have a client that really needs a panel upgrade. Their fuse panel is very much deteriorated.

I booked the replacement but I know they will be getting an electric vehicle in the future and possibly a hot tub.
It will be much easier to upgrade the existing service conduit in the spring because the meter base is being blocked by a fence and really high/full cedar hedges which are going to be removed come spring.
Instead of installing a 100 amp panel and replacing it later, I'd like to install a 200 amp panel and feed with with e existing #3 wires.
The 1-1/4" conduit will be fed from the back of the tub but after upgrading the service the tub will be fed from the top so it will not have to be removed.
Is this acceptable if I label the breaker at 100 amps max?
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:24 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by NDC View Post
This is a weird situation. I have a client that really needs a panel upgrade. Their fuse panel is very much deteriorated.

I booked the replacement but I know they will be getting an electric vehicle in the future and possibly a hot tub.
It will be much easier to upgrade the existing service conduit in the spring because the meter base is being blocked by a fence and really high/full cedar hedges which are going to be removed come spring.
Instead of installing a 100 amp panel and replacing it later, I'd like to install a 200 amp panel and feed with with e existing #3 wires.
The 1-1/4" conduit will be fed from the back of the tub but after upgrading the service the tub will be fed from the top so it will not have to be removed.
Is this acceptable if I label the breaker at 100 amps max?
I cant speak for CEC codes but this what I will suggest to buy a 100 amp two pole breaker with tiedown bracket that is the only legit way it can meet the codes and you can use the 200 amp panel with 100 amp main breaker it add on. when you do the upgrading the rest in spring time you can keep that 100 amp breaker for something else or keep it to yourself.,,

I am sure the CEC do allow that so just hang on either Eddy or couple other guys will make a posting on that.

I have done that quite few time so my inspectors did not have issue with that.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:31 AM   #3
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I would do like French said and backfeed a 100A breaker. But that is not going to be legal in Canada due to the separate service enclosure thing.

Get the customer to give you a deposit on the future service upgrade and don't get it inspected until then. Do this as an emergency repair with the understanding that you will upgrade the service in the Spring. This way you ensure that they have you back to upgrade the whole service and make it compliant.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:46 AM   #4
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The only way to do this is find a 200 amp panel that will take a 100 amp main breaker. The other option would be put in a 100 amp disco and then feed the 200 amp panel from there.

The labeling thing won't work because there is 100 amp readily available.

Why not wait and do the whole thing in the spring?

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Old 02-12-2019, 07:28 PM   #5
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The only way to do this is find a 200 amp panel that will take a 100 amp main breaker. The other option would be put in a 100 amp disco and then feed the 200 amp panel from there.

The labeling thing won't work because there is 100 amp readily available.

Why not wait and do the whole thing in the spring?

Cheers
John

Does such a panel exist? The panel needs to be replaced asap, it's a complete mess and a hazard if left as is until the spring.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:48 PM   #6
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The only way to do this is find a 200 amp panel that will take a 100 amp main breaker. The other option would be put in a 100 amp disco and then feed the 200 amp panel from there.

The labeling thing won't work because there is 100 amp readily available.

Why not wait and do the whole thing in the spring?

Cheers
John

Does such a panel exist? The panel needs to be replaced asap, it's a complete mess and a hazard if left as is until the spring.
No they don’t exist AFAIK.

If the hedges and fence is getting removed in the spring, then just get your sawzall and cut yourself enough room to do the work. Will take no time at all. They can remove the rest in the spring.

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Old 02-12-2019, 08:27 PM   #7
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I’m not sure if I understand this. Why can’t a 200 amp panel be used? I’m looking for a technical answer, not a code rule.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:31 PM   #8
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I’m not sure if I understand this. Why can’t a 200 amp panel be used? I’m looking for a technical answer, not a code rule.
Because the service conductors will only be rated for 100 and the main breaker in the panel is their only overcurrent protection.

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Old 02-12-2019, 08:36 PM   #9
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Put in a 200a Disconnect and put fuse reducers to 100a. swap later
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:37 PM   #10
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Because the service conductors will only be rated for 100 and the main breaker in the panel is their only overcurrent protection.

I was going to post this too but table 39 allows for undersized conductors if the main breaker is labeled with the conductors maximum current rating.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:07 PM   #11
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Because the service conductors will only be rated for 100 and the main breaker in the panel is their only overcurrent protection.

I was going to post this too but table 39 allows for undersized conductors if the main breaker is labeled with the conductors maximum current rating.
Yes but with a 200 amp main you would still need minimum 2/0 copper conductors as per table 39
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:36 PM   #12
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Because the service conductors will only be rated for 100 and the main breaker in the panel is their only overcurrent protection.
Makes sense now.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:37 PM   #13
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Does such a panel exist? The panel needs to be replaced asap, it's a complete mess and a hazard if left as is until the spring.
I am not 100% sure. I have definitely done this 100 amp Seimens panels, put in 60 amp main and remove the 100. The breakers are labeled different, you just can't use a standard 2P60 even though it would fit.

Something to talk to the SH about.

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Old 02-12-2019, 09:48 PM   #14
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Are you doing renos and adding circuits? If so, you could put in a new 100 amp panel now and then put in a small 200 amp panel beside it in the spring. Turn the 100 amp into a sub. Kind of cheesy but it works and down time would be minimal for your service change.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:00 PM   #15
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Does such a panel exist? The panel needs to be replaced asap, it's a complete mess and a hazard if left as is until the spring.
I am not 100% sure. I have definitely done this 100 amp Seimens panels, put in 60 amp main and remove the 100. The breakers are labeled different, you just can't use a standard 2P60 even though it would fit.

Something to talk to the SH about.

Cheers
John
100 and under are usually the same size of breaker, I have done that as well many times. I used to buy a 100 amp panel cheap and install 30 amp breakers in them for sub panels all the time. A cutler hammer 100 amp panel with a main breaker actually cost less than buying a 100 amp breaker on its own.

But a 200 amp breaker is a different physical size so a 200 amp panel with a main will not accept a 100 amp breaker.
There might be one out there, I just have never seen it.
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Old 02-12-2019, 10:39 PM   #16
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Maybe look at a Siemens P1 in single phase with design-your-own guts.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:22 PM   #17
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Thanks all. I'll just ask the SH if I can get a 200 amp tub with a 100 amp breaker.
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Old 02-13-2019, 01:48 PM   #18
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Sitting in on a Tech Safety Electrical Fire Risks in Older Homes - Session #1". webinar atm this is a no no , weekend hack as he said he was the cheapest for a panel replacement
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Old 02-13-2019, 04:49 PM   #19
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I think I read somewhere on here once that we can install a 200 amp panel with 1-1/4" conduit by reducing the neutral. Something about it being common practice if the main conduit is really difficult to replace like for a town house where the conduit is under the garage floor slab.
Is this true?


Did some math:
Table 9C - PVC 1-1/4" = 317mm2 @ 40%


Table 10A - R90 2/0 = 141.9mm x 2 = 283.8mm2
R90 #6 = 37.98 mm2

Total 321.78mm2

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Old 02-13-2019, 05:02 PM   #20
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I think I read somewhere on here once that we can install a 200 amp panel with 1-1/4" conduit by reducing the neutral. Something about it being common practice if the main conduit is really difficult to replace like for a town house where the conduit is under the garage floor slab.
Is this true?
Yes it is true.

https://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/...251362/index3/ post #41

Cheers
John
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