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Old 01-19-2016, 12:00 PM   #1
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Default 220 single phase to 3 phase?

Hello all! a relative of mine who has a detached shop is thinking of buying a German made lathe that is 3 phase 380V. He has 220V single phase to his shop right now so I'm wondering if first of all, it is against code to do so because it's a residence or not?
Secondly, if acceptable, what sort of equipment is required?
Does the voltage need to be stepped up first to 380 and THEN converted to 3-phase or vise versa? (converted to 3-phase first Then stepped up)]
Is this all even possible?
I know that single phase voltage can be obtained from 3-phase voltage but not sure about the other way around.
Just so you all know my brother-in-law has not even bought anything yet and its just something he was considering due to getting this lathe at such a great deal. He would hire a licensed electrical contractor if he goes ahead with it after all costs involved are considered.
This is NOT a side job of mine and I would not even attempt such a task, probably not even if I was licensed!

Also thank you to all who add comments to this thread and thank you in advance for any help
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Old 01-19-2016, 12:04 PM   #2
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Some VFDs will let you bring Single phase in and 3 phase out, works good for Table saws. Your line current will be increased on your L1 L2 Lines though. Not sure if you'll get rated voltage from a 220V input going to 380
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:57 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by psgama View Post
Some VFDs will let you bring Single phase in and 3 phase out, works good for Table saws. Your line current will be increased on your L1 L2 Lines though. Not sure if you'll get rated voltage from a 220V input going to 380
He should be able to adjust the output voltage. Max voltage.
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:27 PM   #4
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I was under the impression that the maximum voltage output you could get out of your VFD is 1.414 * RMS voltage when Ran on single phase due to the cyclical power.

220V * 1.414 = 311V Which is lower than your rated voltage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, Take note, your VFD should be rated for approximately double the HP of the motor your running if it's over 3 HP due to the increased line current running it single phase.
So 3 HP Motor = 6 HP VFD

Last edited by psgama; 01-19-2016 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 01-19-2016, 03:08 PM   #5
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I was under the impression that the maximum voltage output you could get out of your VFD is 1.414 * RMS voltage when Ran on single phase due to the cyclical power.

220V * 1.414 = 311V Which is lower than your rated voltage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

...
I just worked on a project that had an ABB ACS250 drive with a single phase 115 volt input and 3 phase 230 volt output.
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Old 01-19-2016, 03:13 PM   #6
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Interesting. I'll have to look more into that

Last edited by psgama; 01-19-2016 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 01-19-2016, 07:11 PM   #7
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Interesting. I'll have to look more into that
Yes, I didn't think they existed, so I had to dig up the specs when I was reviewing the panel design.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:25 AM   #8
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unless he wants to pay CSA special inspection (or the machine is listed for use in canada), it is not legal, but most people don't care
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:34 AM   #9
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unless he wants to pay CSA special inspection (or the machine is listed for use in Canada), it is not legal, but most people don't care
Thankyou all for the replies!
Yes this is his main concern, if ESA will even entertain this install at all. I was under the impression that 3 phase power is not allowed on a residential property in Ontario or Canada for that matter, am I wrong? Is there a code for this?
I see section 2 has this code; Max voltage is 150Vt-to-ground as per code 2-106.
He is looking to buy over $25,000 in shop equipment so he is not worried about having proper CSA approvals done. he just wants good reliable equipment and swears by this German made stuff hehe
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:39 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by TechieBecky View Post
Thankyou all for the replies!
Yes this is his main concern, if ESA will even entertain this install at all. I was under the impression that 3 phase power is not allowed on a residential property in Ontario or Canada for that matter, am I wrong? Is there a code for this?
I see section 2 has this code; Max voltage is 150Vt-to-ground as per code 2-106.
He is looking to buy over $25,000 in shop equipment so he is not worried about having proper CSA approvals done. he just wants good reliable equipment and swears by this German made stuff hehe
There is no code against 3-phase on a residential property, it is commonly done with larger houses. The 150 V to ground thing might be an issue though. That would be a question for your AHJ.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:10 AM   #11
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Change out the motor to a single phase.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechieBecky View Post
Hello all! a relative of mine who has a detached shop is thinking of buying a German made lathe that is 3 phase 380V. He has 220V single phase to his shop right now so I'm wondering if first of all, it is against code to do so because it's a residence or not?
Secondly, if acceptable, what sort of equipment is required?
Does the voltage need to be stepped up first to 380 and THEN converted to 3-phase or vise versa? (converted to 3-phase first Then stepped up)]
Is this all even possible?
I know that single phase voltage can be obtained from 3-phase voltage but not sure about the other way around.
Just so you all know my brother-in-law has not even bought anything yet and its just something he was considering due to getting this lathe at such a great deal. He would hire a licensed electrical contractor if he goes ahead with it after all costs involved are considered.
This is NOT a side job of mine and I would not even attempt such a task, probably not even if I was licensed!

Also thank you to all who add comments to this thread and thank you in advance for any help
I know that he wants that specific lathe but, it just has too many strikes against it to be installed.
He should look more toward something compatible with the power he has available.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:17 PM   #13
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I know that he wants that specific lathe but, it just has too many strikes against it to be installed.
He should look more toward something compatible with the power he has available.
Is the equipment new or used? I don't think Germany builds much 380 volt 3 phase products. The new voltage standards for the EU are 230/400 @ 50HZ.
A VFD is the only way to go! Single phase VFD's for 3 HP motor should be readily available with a input of 240 volts. Lathes, like table saws, start with little of no load. Also, being able to set voltage, as well as frequency will let the machine operate, they way it was designed.
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:05 PM   #14
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Well my bro-inlaw decided to buy the lathe, it was apparently free considering what he paid for it so he couldn't pass it up. I have suggested swapping out the motor and he is going to look into doing so however here is the motor plate (first pic) and control box plate (second pic)
Any thoughts?
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgama View Post
Interesting. I'll have to look more into that
Take a measurement of the bus voltage on a VFD. This my friend is how you can get more out, than you put in as far as voltage.

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Change out the motor to a single phase.
If the motor is less money sure.
But with using just a motor, speed changes are done with pulleys. Mechanical adjustment if you will. Most lathes today have adjustable speed capability. (VFD). And the ones without, are getting it.
With a VFD, the lathe operator can adjust speed with a turn of the new poteniometer you installed on the operator panel.
The VFD is the way to go IMO. Being able to adjust speed, must be considered when looking at a new motor vs the VFD.
Single phase motors are very expensive and have more moving parts.

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Originally Posted by jrannis View Post
I know that he wants that specific lathe but, it just has too many strikes against it to be installed.
He should look more toward something compatible with the power he has available.
If the lathe has only one motor, A VFD is the way to go. The voltage and hertz issue is resolved with a VFD and the addition of speed adjustment has to be considered.
Being able to slow down or speed up the lathe is quite important. There is no reason anymore to move belts to adjust speed. We don't do that **** anymore.

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Is the equipment new or used? I don't think Germany builds much 380 volt 3 phase products. The new voltage standards for the EU are 230/400 @ 50HZ.
A VFD is the only way to go! Single phase VFD's for 3 HP motor should be readily available with a input of 240 volts. Lathes, like table saws, start with little of no load. Also, being able to set voltage, as well as frequency will let the machine operate, they way it was designed.
Agree!

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Well my bro-inlaw decided to buy the lathe, it was apparently free considering what he paid for it so he couldn't pass it up. I have suggested swapping out the motor and he is going to look into doing so however here is the motor plate (first pic) and control box plate (second pic)
Any thoughts?
Since the motor is not inverter duty, he may not get all the life left in that motor. He might though.
The best part is when the motor goes, he can buy a new 3 phase inverter duty motor for less than a single phase motor.

Do you have any idea as to what his motor speed range will be?
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Old 02-18-2016, 11:23 PM   #16
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it's been a month, but my question is ... have you looked at installing a 3 phase 600V service for the shop? I did this for a customer of mine, single phase 240V service for the house and completely separate 3 phase 600V service for the shop. In my case the property was zoned for multiple use, so Hydro was willing to play ball. YMMV
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:46 AM   #17
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This exact topic was beaten to death less than a month ago.

There is a UK outfit that sells VFD units that make the conversion in ONE STEP.

You mate them to each machine tool.

They are not that pricey.

They provide the European standard frequency and voltages.

NO PROBLEM.

They are especially perfect for lathes as NO-ONE ever starts a lathe under heavy load.

The actual loading of a shop lathe -- an 'engine' lathe -- is far, far less than the nameplate figures.

They have power plants sized for the worst case torque demand.

Hence, they loaf along for decades.

Go to Tubalcain at YouTube for ENDLESS videos on such topics -- to include his own 1 phase to 3 phase conversion project.

And he's not even an electrician.

He found it simple Simon.
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