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Old 10-22-2019, 07:59 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by joe-nwt View Post
Just checked online with my wholesale.



2x QO115 is exactly the same price as 1x QO1515.



Of course, being canadian pricing, it's still too much......
Try 2× single pole 15 and a 2 pole 40 vs 15-40-40-15.

Yes I know that's a quad not a tandem

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Old 10-22-2019, 11:13 PM   #22
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My interpretation of that rule is that it is OK to extend anything in the panel to a breaker. But as soon as you join two cables / wires that leave the panel separately then it is a violation.

As an example, if you extend the doorbell xmfr to a breaker that is fine. But if you pick up the doorbell and the panel receptacle inside the panel then to a breaker this would be a violation.

Another example, you had a cable for “North” living receptacles leave one side of the panel and a cable for “South” living room receptacles leaving the other side of the panel, you join them up inside the panel and call it “Living Room Receptacles” would be a violation.

While I agree that it is not a dangerous situation to do that, I believe it is a violation; the intent would be to have a junction box or gutter on the exterior of the panel.

Cheers
John
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:30 PM   #23
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My interpretation of that rule is that it is OK to extend anything in the panel to a breaker. But as soon as you join two cables / wires that leave the panel separately then it is a violation.

As an example, if you extend the doorbell xmfr to a breaker that is fine. But if you pick up the doorbell and the panel receptacle inside the panel then to a breaker this would be a violation.

Another example, you had a cable for “North” living receptacles leave one side of the panel and a cable for “South” living room receptacles leaving the other side of the panel, you join them up inside the panel and call it “Living Room Receptacles” would be a violation.

While I agree that it is not a dangerous situation to do that, I believe it is a violation; the intent would be to have a junction box or gutter on the exterior of the panel.

Cheers
John
I'm no Canadian... No, no. It's true... But I've heard you guys argue this for years. But the CEC code section posted is as clear as a blue sky. It does not support your interpretation.
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Old 10-22-2019, 11:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
My interpretation of that rule is that it is OK to extend anything in the panel to a breaker. But as soon as you join two cables / wires that leave the panel separately then it is a violation.



As an example, if you extend the doorbell xmfr to a breaker that is fine. But if you pick up the doorbell and the panel receptacle inside the panel then to a breaker this would be a violation.



Another example, you had a cable for “North” living receptacles leave one side of the panel and a cable for “South” living room receptacles leaving the other side of the panel, you join them up inside the panel and call it “Living Room Receptacles” would be a violation.



While I agree that it is not a dangerous situation to do that, I believe it is a violation; the intent would be to have a junction box or gutter on the exterior of the panel.



Cheers

John
That's where square D QO breakers are nice. They have a pressure plate and are rated for 2×14-10awg conductors for the smaller sizes (15, 20 etc)

Also, you put the doorbell on its own transformer?? That's a waste of a breaker. We always put it on with a lighting circuit (spliced in the panel) so we know of the doorbell has power. Makes troubleshooting easier.

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Old 10-23-2019, 12:08 AM   #25
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That's where square D QO breakers are nice. They have a pressure plate and are rated for 2×14-10awg conductors for the smaller sizes (15, 20 etc)
So, the electrical inspector flags you for a wirenut, or the home inspector flags you for a "double tapped" breaker
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:22 AM   #26
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So, the electrical inspector flags you for a wirenut, or the home inspector flags you for a "double tapped" breaker
He said he uses Square d. Accepts two wires per breaker. Home inspectors still don't know that. I get realtor calls to fix double tapped sq-D breakers. So I do. And pick up two quid doing it.............
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:00 AM   #27
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First off, they are marettes (this is the canuck section ! )

Secondly, it's twice today that you forgot about the puppies that die
That's because he hates puppies, but won't admit it.
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:05 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
My interpretation of that rule is that it is OK to extend anything in the panel to a breaker. But as soon as you join two cables / wires that leave the panel separately then it is a violation.

As an example, if you extend the doorbell xmfr to a breaker that is fine. But if you pick up the doorbell and the panel receptacle inside the panel then to a breaker this would be a violation.

Another example, you had a cable for “North” living receptacles leave one side of the panel and a cable for “South” living room receptacles leaving the other side of the panel, you join them up inside the panel and call it “Living Room Receptacles” would be a violation.

While I agree that it is not a dangerous situation to do that, I believe it is a violation; the intent would be to have a junction box or gutter on the exterior of the panel.

Cheers
John
That is not what the code is saying. If it was, then we would not be allowed to wire a doorbell transformer, they are NEVER on their own circuit either, that’s just silly. They are also always connected right to the panel. Check your own house, is the doorbell connected to the panel and shared with another circuit? Here, read what it says in the CEC handbook for more clarification. They are talking about an enclosure like a disconnect, more than a panelboard.



12-3032 CEC Handbook
Subrule 1) requires that enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, or externally operated switches not be used as junction boxes, wiring troughs, or raceways for insulated conductors feeding through to other apparatus. Wiring space within these devices is usually only large enough to contain the supply and load insulated conductors. Situations that can necessitate a feed-through to other apparatus can usually be avoided by the use of wireways or auxiliary gutters.


Also, check out PSKnights simplified. It is explained really well there with diagrams and pictures.
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:07 AM   #29
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That's because he hates puppies, but won't admit it.
It's true, he told me that on the way up to our baby seal clubbing vacation.
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:14 AM   #30
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That's because he hates puppies, but won't admit it.
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It's true, he told me that on the way up to our baby seal clubbing vacation.
I'm never snorting rhino horn with you guys again. We're soooo done.
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:28 AM   #31
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If you're sweatin it, put a terminal strip in there. You can even label it.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
That is not what the code is saying. If it was, then we would not be allowed to wire a doorbell transformer, they are NEVER on their own circuit either, that’s just silly. They are also always connected right to the panel. Check your own house, is the doorbell connected to the panel and shared with another circuit? Here, read what it says in the CEC handbook for more clarification. They are talking about an enclosure like a disconnect, more than a panelboard.



12-3032 CEC Handbook
Subrule 1) requires that enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, or externally operated switches not be used as junction boxes, wiring troughs, or raceways for insulated conductors feeding through to other apparatus. Wiring space within these devices is usually only large enough to contain the supply and load insulated conductors. Situations that can necessitate a feed-through to other apparatus can usually be avoided by the use of wireways or auxiliary gutters.


Also, check out PSKnights simplified. It is explained really well there with diagrams and pictures.
I know this is like the ground pin up or down… but anyway

So I agree that putting the doorbell on with something else is a good idea. I even think that there is no risk to splicing it in with something in the panel; but I don’t think that is the way the code is intended. Now we could have a discussion regarding code intent verse enforcement, but that is separate.

Using my example, the doorbell is one “apparatus” and the receptacle is another… same issue if you put switches off a side of a panel, as soon as you put that wire on something that leaves the panel it become a junction box or a raceway.

As soon as you join two separate wires to a third, you are making a junction and not simply “extending” the wires. If a wire enters a panel then leaves without a connection to a breaker, then it is a raceway.

I have the CEC Handbook; but I don’t have the Knight book. It seems just as clear to me with my interpretation as it does to you for yours. One could argue that it is semantics; an extension of a wire is still a "junction", but to me if you start to join more then one wire together you are not “extending” a wire, but making a "junction" that should be in a box exterior to the panel.

I agree that there is little to no risk for making a junction in the panel; and I would be one of the first to admit that I have done it, but I don’t think it is a compliant install. There are lots of ways to avoid making that connection in the panel either in the design / install stage or when making a repair.

Cheers
John
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:20 AM   #33
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I'm never snorting rhino horn with you guys again. We're soooo done.
Good. That means they'll be more for us and I get Hackey all to myself.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:30 AM   #34
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@Navyguy, the key word in the code is “feedthrough”. Connecting two branch circuits together is not “feeding through”, it is simply a splice.

Quote:
Using my example, the doorbell is one “apparatus” and the receptacle is another… same issue if you put switches off a side of a panel, as soon as you put that wire on something that leaves the panel it become a junction box or a raceway.
Perfect example actually. Is the doorbell feeding through the panel to the receptacle? No, it is not. The feed originates in the panel and only exits, it does not “FEED THROUGH” it to other apparatus. If you left the panel and wired the doorbell with a circuit, and then returned the circuit to the panel, made a splice in the panel and then left again off to the receptacle, now that would be what the code is referring to.

Leaving the panel with a branch circuit to a switch or timer, then coming back to the panel and making a splice that “feeds through” the panel to other apparatus is another example.
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Old 10-23-2019, 10:37 AM   #35
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It's true, he told me that on the way up to our baby seal clubbing vacation.
He's so disingenuous and insensitive.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:58 AM   #36
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Good. That means they'll be more for us and I get Hackey all to myself.
That's just peachy. I've moved on long ago. My old squeeze Emtnut is back, and he is 0% Italian. I can finally get rid of these plastic couch covers.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:06 PM   #37
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From PS Knights Code simplified book.
Attached Thumbnails
Code forbidding splicing or junctions within a panelboard?-21e1334b-8ada-4bd3-be2a-a3557622f2aa_1571843145041.jpg   Code forbidding splicing or junctions within a panelboard?-203dcf2e-59f1-4bbc-9e21-8ac2d499a85f_1571843157855.jpg  
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:17 PM   #38
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That's just peachy. I've moved on long ago. My old squeeze Emtnut is back, and he is 0% Italian. I can finally get rid of these plastic couch covers.
This, is for you.

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Old 10-23-2019, 03:01 PM   #39
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I'm going to miss you the most. It didn't have to be this way.
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Old 10-23-2019, 03:08 PM   #40
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I'm going to miss you the most.
Fine. I hope you two are happy.
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