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Old 11-10-2018, 07:53 AM   #1
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Default Conduit for tile heating

What an asinine rule. How do you guys do it?

Did I mention that it's an asinine rule?
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:10 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
What an asinine rule. How do you guys do it?

Did I mention that it's an asinine rule?
I've gotten in the habit of doing it for all floor heating. I normally use a 44 box or a box with 1/2" knock outs and run a piece of cor-line.

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Old 11-10-2018, 08:56 AM   #3
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Early (1/2 cup of coffee only)...
https://www.electrical-online.com/wi...floor-heating/



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Old 11-10-2018, 09:16 AM   #4
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What rule are you talking about, I never do in floor heating so am not familiar with that code rule.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:21 AM   #5
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You know @99cents that this all because of that guy that got cooked on the bathroom floor in Ontario

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...bathroom-floor

We now have separate inspections and permits for in-floor heat.

Cheers
John
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:27 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
You know @99cents that this all because of that guy that got cooked on the bathroom floor in Ontario

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...bathroom-floor

We now have separate inspections and permits for in-floor heat.

Cheers
John

So how would conduit of saved him?

It seems the EC wired it for 240V, and forgot to wire in the heat sensor.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
You know @99cents that this all because of that guy that got cooked on the bathroom floor in Ontario

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...bathroom-floor

We now have separate inspections and permits for in-floor heat.

Cheers
John
The conduit is required by the manufacturer on some of them right out the box.

Schluter is one of them. Instructions say to run a conduit for it.

I had an inspector tell me someone has a single pole switch on the heated floor one day too.

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Old 11-10-2018, 09:55 AM   #8
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How do you bury a 1/2" pipe in a tile floor is what I want to know.

What an asinine rule.

Why not put in threaded pipe and sink a boom proof fitting in the floor?

Last edited by 99cents; 11-10-2018 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:32 AM   #9
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As others have said, 4x4, with 1/2" emt - offset to the back of the stud, bend a 90, chisel out bottom plate, cut 90 just as it protrudes from bottom of plate, and cap with Arlington bushing.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:43 AM   #10
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So how would conduit of saved him?

It seems the EC wired it for 240V, and forgot to wire in the heat sensor.
My understanding is that this came out of the investigation for this whole event. The concern was that there are many previous installations where the sensor and heat wires were just floating in there and not properly secured. Further because it is not really subject to many of the wiring rules in the CEC (distance from edge, multiple wires under a staple, etc) that "they" created a new protocal based on potential faults.

So I agree that the conduit would not have saved this guy, but I am led to believe it is a result of this particular investigation. So now is the additional inspections and permits required in Ontario for in-floor heat.

Cheers
John
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:22 PM   #11
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Is this just an Ontario rule? I thought it was CEC?
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:26 PM   #12
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Is this just an Ontario rule? I thought it was CEC?

It is CEC , I dont run conduit into the floor, run conduit into the plate leave 1/2 in on bottom side of plate to bring conductors out at floor. and protection plate

Our inspectors are looking for the 1/2 KO in the wall box


I agree it is a pita but probably so they sensor wires dont get sheared off
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:53 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
Is this just an Ontario rule? I thought it was CEC?
No it is a CEC rule, but the additional inspections and fees are an Ontario thing. Sorry if I caused some confusion with my previous post.

Cheers
John
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Navyguy View Post
You know @99cents that this all because of that guy that got cooked on the bathroom floor in Ontario

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...bathroom-floor

We now have separate inspections and permits for in-floor heat.

Cheers
John

The dude has been trying to hide his assets, not doing a great job of that either

https://www.ebmag.com/articles/esa-w...rs-death-20517
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Helmut View Post
So how would conduit of saved him?

It seems the EC wired it for 240V, and forgot to wire in the heat sensor.
The problem was that it wasn't an LEC. It was a handy man using the wrong
rated equipment.

And Justly got what they deserved by having to go to court, but not enough to bring back the victims life IMHO.

Handy people need to learn when and when not to do jobs.

The term "it's only 115 volts" needs to be penalized with a life sentence behind bars or-- even better the electric chair (so they can feel the same as their victim as they die).

Yes I am a Canadian, and no I do not apologize very much- but this is how we have to start treating the ones that seem to think that "electrical is easy" until they can't figure it out or even worse- someone pays the price with their life due to the handy-persons experimentation of misunderstanding from a home depot book.

For all those contractors that offer advice over the phone- if even ONE of those customers says that you told them that's what you told them to do, guess who's on the hook in court???

Just a few things to think about and pass along to your employees/ coworkers that may "unintentionally" unemploy you, or shut down you company.

@Navyguy, thanks for the link, I was actually looking for it recently to show to a coworker, the reason "why things are so expensive" - liability along costs a lot on insurance. They now understand.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:03 PM   #16
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CEC 2009 62-128 sub rule (2)

Where the heating element of a series heating cable set is embedded in a concrete or similar floor, the non-heating end leads, if not the metal-sheathed type, shall be run from within the concrete to the junction box in rigid conduit, electrical metallic tubing or other approved raceway



Then in 2012, the rule was changed and expanded



62-128 Non-heating leads of heating device sets (see Appendix B)
(1) The non-heating leads of heating device sets shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of
Rule 62-102.
(2) Conductors that are not an integral factory-built part of a heating device set, or factory supplied with the heating device set, shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of Section 12.
(3) Where a heating device is embedded in concrete or a subfloor assembly, or under a floor covering, the non-heating leads shall be run from the junction box to the floor in a raceway.
(4) Notwithstanding Subrule (3), the raceway shall be permitted to terminate no more than 50 mm from the floor where the non-heating leads are contained within a wooden base plate and effectively protected from
mechanical damage.
Appendix B

The intent of Subrule (4) is to allow a small gap from the end of the raceway to the wooden base plate, as it is impractical to terminate the raceway at the wooden base plate or to continue it through the wooden base plate.





(5) Notwithstanding Subrule (3), Rules 62-124(2), and 62-214(2), the joint between the heating portion and the non-heating leads shall be permitted to be installed in the supply junction box forming part of the system, provided that the heating portion is contained within a raceway between the point where it leaves the concrete, subfloor, or non-combustible material and enters the box.



From the handbook


Rule 62-128 Non-heating leads of heating device sets


Rule 62-128(1) requires that the non-heating leads of heating device sets be installed
• in compliance with the Rules in Section 62;
• in accordance with the manufacturer’s requirements; and
• with all electrical conductive shields, braids, coverings, and all exposed metal surfaces bonded to ground.
The non-heating leads of heating device sets that are not integral to or supplied with the heating device set are required by Subrule (2) to be installed in accordance with the requirements of Section 12 for the wiring
method used.
To protect the non-heating leads from damage when the heating device set is embedded in concrete or a subfloor assembly, or is under a floor covering, Subrule (3) requires that the non-heating leads be run in a
raceway from the junction box and terminate in the concrete or subfloor assembly, or under the floor covering.
See Figure 62-6.
Where the non-heating leads are contained within a wood base plate and effectively protected from mechanical damage, Subrule (4) allows the raceway containing the non-heating leads to terminate no more than 50 mm from the floor instead of terminating in the floor.
Subrule (5) allows the connection between the heating portion and the non-heating leads of a heating device set to be installed in the supply junction box that is part of the system, provided the heating portion of the heating device set is contained within a raceway between the point where it leaves the concrete, subfloor, or non-combustible material and enters the box.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmut View Post
So how would conduit of saved him?

It seems the EC wired it for 240V, and forgot to wire in the heat sensor.
The problem was that it wasn't an LEC. It was a handy man using the wrong
rated equipment.[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.electriciantalk.com/images/smilies/vs_cool.gif[/IMG]

And Justly got what they deserved by having to go to court, but not enough to bring back the victims life IMHO.

Handy people need to learn when and when not to do jobs.

The term "it's only 115 volts" needs to be penalized with a life sentence behind bars or-- even better the electric chair (so they can feel the same as their victim as they die).

Yes I am a Canadian, and no I do not apologize very much- but this is how we have to start treating the ones that seem to think that "electrical is easy" until they can't figure it out or even worse- someone pays the price with their life due to the handy-persons experimentation of misunderstanding from a home depot book.

For all those contractors that offer advice over the phone- if even ONE of those customers says that you told them that's what you told them to do, guess who's on the hook in court???

Just a few things to think about and pass along to your employees/ coworkers that may "unintentionally" unemploy you, or shut down you company.

@Navyguy, thanks for the link, I was actually looking for it recently to show to a coworker, the reason "why things are so expensive" - liability along costs a lot on insurance. They now understand.
The National Post story says it was a licenced Electrical Contractor, is that information incorrect?
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:42 PM   #18
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The National Post story says it was a licenced Electrical Contractor, is that information incorrect?
Both links state that it was an LEC, not a handyman.

And that he didn't follow proper installation procedure.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:51 PM   #19
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I use a 1018-lhtq box and step bit a hole in the bottom, then run 1/2" non-metallic flex down. Sawzall about half the bottom plate out and strap the flex close to where it ends near the bottom really well.
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:07 AM   #20
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I am still amazed that a 120V mat running at 240V max could cause burns that could kill a person. I’m not saying it didn’t happen and not defending the EC but it’s freaky. And it operated that way for four years.
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