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Old 07-09-2019, 07:06 PM   #61
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And, AND, the OP stated he wanted both travellers, hot and neutral in both boxes. How would you do that?

Second AND for emphasis.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:06 PM   #62
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Easy. Feed the first switch, run a three wire from first switch to second switch, then a two wire from the second switch to the load. No 4 wire needed and each switch location has a neutral
What if your load comes from the first switch?
Wire the second switch first. Lol

Now with the new code requiring a neutral at each switch location, 3 way switching will require a bit of planning
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:07 PM   #63
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Yaaaaaaayyyyyy!!!
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:08 PM   #64
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And, AND, the OP stated he wanted both travellers, hot and neutral in both boxes. How would you do that?
That would never be required.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:09 PM   #65
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Yaaaaaaayyyyyy!!!
OP said he wanted a hot in the second box.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:10 PM   #66
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That would never be required.
Sez you.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:11 PM   #67
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That would never be required.
Sez you.
Why would you need it?
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:11 PM   #68
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Exactly. 2 wire (hot & neutral) to first box, 3 wire (2 travelers & neutral) between first & second box, 2 wire (switch leg & neutral) to the load.

The only scenario where your wiring diagram makes sense is if there's a receptacle or some other thing requiring constant power on the same circuit at the second box. @Incognito, I submit that his diagram is actually not against code, as all the circuit conductors are contained in the same cable if you follow the current flow. It's wired no differently than a dead-end 3 way, which was compliant (including with 12-106) before the rule requiring a neutral at every switch came along. joe-nwt's diagram is completely compliant, it just only makes sense if you need hot, neutral, and switch leg at the far side of the circuit.

ETA: I see this conversation has continued and many of my points were made while I was crafting this response.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:14 PM   #69
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Exactly. 2 wire (hot & neutral) to first box, 3 wire (2 travelers & neutral) between first & second box, 2 wire (switch leg & neutral) to the load.

The only scenario where your wiring diagram makes sense is if there's a receptacle or some other thing requiring constant power on the same circuit at the second box. @Incognito, I submit that his diagram is actually not against code, as all the circuit conductors are contained in the same cable if you follow the current flow. It's wired no differently than a dead-end 3 way, which was compliant (including with 12-106) before the rule requiring a neutral at every switch came along. joe-nwt's diagram is completely compliant, it just only makes sense if you need hot, neutral, and switch leg at the far side of the circuit.

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A better way would be to wire that other receptacle from some other source.
Why would you bring the live feed into the second switch box at all? You would pass right by it and feed directly into the receptacle. Bringing it in the second switch box would be a waste and not required.

Feeding another receptacle from the 3 way switch would cause other problems, like box fill.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:18 PM   #70
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A better way would be to wire that other receptacle from some other source.
Why would you bring the live feed into the second switch box at all? You would pass right by it and feed directly into the receptacle. Bringing it in the second switch box would be a waste and not required.

Feeding another receptacle from the 3 way switch would cause other problems, like box fill.
Here, show me how to wire this into the second box:

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/5245-i
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:32 PM   #71
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A better way would be to wire that other receptacle from some other source.
Why would you bring the live feed into the second switch box at all? You would pass right by it and feed directly into the receptacle. Bringing it in the second switch box would be a waste and not required.

Feeding another receptacle from the 3 way switch would cause other problems, like box fill.
Here, show me how to wire this into the second box:

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/5245-i
How many of those have you installed ? Lol

I would not install one of those, I would use a duplex in a separate box.

But for some odd reason, if that is what the customer wanted, I would wire it first so that I don’t have to use a deep box and not have to run extra wiring between the switches that is not needed.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:40 PM   #72
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If no one needed/wanted them, they wouldn't make them. The OP said he wanted all four wires in the second box. Instead of evading the question, why don't you make your customer happy and show us your code compliant way of giving him what he wants?
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:45 PM   #73
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If no one needed/wanted them, they wouldn't make them. The OP said he wanted all four wires in the second box. Instead of evading the question, why don't you make your customer happy and show us your code compliant way of giving him what he wants?
I’m not evading the question, I answered you on exactly how to do it properly.

The customer can get it if they want and it can be done in a correct, code compliant way without using extra wire and deep boxes, it just takes 10 seconds of extra planning and thought.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:55 PM   #74
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We've always ran s wires between switches.
You always run extra, unnecessary wiring for three way’s? So I guess you also always use deep boxes to accommodate all those extra wires?
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:29 PM   #75
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You always run extra, unnecessary wiring for three way’s? So I guess you also always use deep boxes to accommodate all those extra wires?
Tell us about your deep-box phobia? Sometimes it helps to talk about it.....

That was a typo, supposed to read 3 wires.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:32 PM   #76
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You always run extra, unnecessary wiring for three way’️s? So I guess you also always use deep boxes to accommodate all those extra wires?
Tell us about your deep-box phobia? Sometimes it helps to talk about it.....

That was a typo, supposed to read 3 wires.
Oh, I thought you meant you always run 2 separate cables between the switches for 3 ways.
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Old Today, 02:18 AM   #77
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How many of those have you installed ? Lol

I would not install one of those, I would use a duplex in a separate box.

But for some odd reason, if that is what the customer wanted, I would wire it first so that I don’t have to use a deep box and not have to run extra wiring between the switches that is not needed.
If you wanted to comply with code wouldn’t you have to use a duplex receptacle according to CEC.....
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Old Today, 07:26 AM   #78
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Tell us about your deep-box phobia? Sometimes it helps to talk about it.....
I could not agree more. The extra labor used in trying to cram everything into a shallow box is more than the cost for a couple of deeper boxes.
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Old Today, 08:10 AM   #79
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If you wanted to comply with code wouldn’t you have to use a duplex receptacle according to CEC.....
Good point.

All (most of) the codes for dwelling unit receptacles call for duplex receptacles. So if you installed the switch/receptacle combo in a hallway for instance, you would also still be required to have enough duplex receptacles in that area to meet code anyway.
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Old Today, 08:20 AM   #80
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I could not agree more. The extra labor used in trying to cram everything into a shallow box is more than the cost for a couple of deeper boxes.
Or just wire it correctly the first time

When I said a deep box was needed as a bad thing, I was just pointing out yet another issue with wiring three ways in the manner that the OP was asking about.

deep boxes are useful for things like USB outlets, gfi’s or dimmers. Many electricians will use a deep box at every switch location anyway for future dimming as well. But running extra wires in a three way to add a switch/receptacle combo is a bad idea for many reasons.
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