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Old 01-18-2019, 08:23 AM   #1
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Default Emergency and exit lighting, Canada

I have two restaurants starting, small places with a few tables, mostly take out. The last one I did had exits and emergencies on the drawings. This time they have been left out.

I am not sure of building code requirements. I read somewhere that they are required for an occupancy load over 60.

Help.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
I have two restaurants starting, small places with a few tables, mostly take out. The last one I did had exits and emergencies on the drawings. This time they have been left out.

I am not sure of building code requirements. I read somewhere that they are required for an occupancy load over 60.

Help.
Isn't this something you could eyeball? I mean, you know where the exits are, you know where the bathrooms are, you know where the hallways are, etc.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:29 AM   #3
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Have a look...

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.tnb.ca/en/brands/lumacell/files/3LU_Building_Code_EN.pdf

^^ weird link but seems to work for me.

I use the Brave Browser which is built on Chrome but has all the filthy Google stuff snuffed out.

Also use DuckDuckGo for the search engine which has all the Google filthy stuff snuffed out.

Liking it.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by daveEM View Post
Have a look...

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.tnb.ca/en/brands/lumacell/files/3LU_Building_Code_EN.pdf

^^ weird link but seems to work for me.

I use the Brave Browser which is built on Chrome but has all the filthy Google stuff snuffed out.

Also use DuckDuckGo for the search engine which has all the Google filthy stuff snuffed out.

Liking it.
So, skimming through that, I didn't see mention of emergency lighting for restrooms. Is that not something you do in Canada? We don't require it everywhere here either. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Usually a fire code.
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Old 01-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #5
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So, skimming through that, I didn't see mention of emergency lighting for restrooms. Is that not something you do in Canada? We don't require it everywhere here either. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Usually a fire code.
So in Canada, if you don't know enough to get out of the bathroom if the building's on fire, it's f. you, burn motherf'er?

I am all right with that, but they say Canadians are so nice, I think once you scratch the surface, they're pretty ****ing hostile.
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:00 AM   #6
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I use the Brave Browser which is built on Chrome but has all the filthy Google stuff snuffed out.
That is the opposite of a brave browser. They should call it Scaredy Browser.
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:19 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by splatz View Post
So in Canada, if you don't know enough to get out of the bathroom if the building's on fire, it's f. you, burn motherf'er?

I am all right with that, but they say Canadians are so nice, I think once you scratch the surface, they're pretty ****ing hostile.


Or like the Exchange rate,


.75 x The Exits in the States,...
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Old 01-18-2019, 10:28 AM   #8
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So, skimming through that, I didn't see mention of emergency lighting for restrooms. Is that not something you do in Canada? We don't require it everywhere here either. It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Usually a fire code.
Yeah it doesn't seem to list them. We light em up tho. At least the larger ones I've been in.
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Old 01-18-2019, 11:52 AM   #9
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Who made the drawings? Was it an engineer or are they on the back of a napkin?
If engineered drawings confirm with them. May end up being a nice little extra for you...

Last edited by Kawicrash; 01-18-2019 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:11 PM   #10
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I am all right with that, but they say Canadians are so nice, I think once you scratch the surface, they're pretty ****ing hostile.
I can't speak for all the Canucks, but it doesn't really take much scratching for me
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Old 01-18-2019, 07:57 PM   #11
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From the NBC (most provincial codes have nearly verbatim clauses, I have the BCBC and ABC if you want a specific reference):

3.2.7.3 Emergency Lighting
1) Emergency lighting shall be provided to an average level of illumination not
less than 10 lx at floor or tread level in
a) exits,
b) principal routes providing access to exit in open floor areas and in service rooms,
c) corridors used by the public,
d) corridors serving sleeping rooms in a treatment occupancy,
e) corridors serving sleeping rooms in a care occupancy, except corridors
serving sleeping rooms within individual suites of care occupancy,
f) corridors serving classrooms,
g) underground walkways,
h) public corridors,
i) floor areas or parts thereof where the public may congregate
i) in Group A, Division 1 occupancies, or
ii) in Group A, Division 2 and 3 occupancies having an occupant
load of 60 or more,
j) floor areas or parts thereof of daycare centres where persons are cared for, and
k) food preparation areas in commercial kitchens.


...

3.4.5.1 Exit Signs
1) Every exit door shall have an exit sign placed over or adjacent to it if the
exit serves
a) a building more than 2 storeys in building height,
b) a building having an occupant load of more than 150, or
c) a room or floor area that has a fire escape as part of a required means of egress.


In general... Emergency lighting is needed everywhere regardless of occupancy / size / etc. Exit lighting is only needed when you have more than 150 people or a 3 storey building or higher.

Hope that helps.

CAVEAT: Information presented in this post does not constitute professional engineering advice.
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 908Eng View Post
From the NBC (most provincial codes have nearly verbatim clauses, I have the BCBC and ABC if you want a specific reference):

3.2.7.3 Emergency Lighting
1) Emergency lighting shall be provided to an average level of illumination not
less than 10 lx at floor or tread level in
a) exits,
b) principal routes providing access to exit in open floor areas and in service rooms,
c) corridors used by the public,
d) corridors serving sleeping rooms in a treatment occupancy,
e) corridors serving sleeping rooms in a care occupancy, except corridors
serving sleeping rooms within individual suites of care occupancy,
f) corridors serving classrooms,
g) underground walkways,
h) public corridors,
i) floor areas or parts thereof where the public may congregate
i) in Group A, Division 1 occupancies, or
ii) in Group A, Division 2 and 3 occupancies having an occupant
load of 60 or more,
j) floor areas or parts thereof of daycare centres where persons are cared for, and
k) food preparation areas in commercial kitchens.


...

3.4.5.1 Exit Signs
1) Every exit door shall have an exit sign placed over or adjacent to it if the
exit serves
a) a building more than 2 storeys in building height,
b) a building having an occupant load of more than 150, or
c) a room or floor area that has a fire escape as part of a required means of egress.


In general... Emergency lighting is needed everywhere regardless of occupancy / size / etc. Exit lighting is only needed when you have more than 150 people or a 3 storey building or higher.

Hope that helps.

CAVEAT: Information presented in this post does not constitute professional engineering advice.



I like funny codes


Who decides which paths are the principle routes?


What's the difference between c(corridors used by the public) and h(public corridors)?


How do you determine where the public may congregate, wouldn't that be everywhere?


Also, looks like you can save a li'l cash as they only require exit signs.


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Old 01-19-2019, 08:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTshockhazard View Post




I like funny codes [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.electriciantalk.com/images/smilies/wink.png[/IMG]


Who decides which paths are the principle routes?


What's the difference between c(corridors used by the public) and h(public corridors)?


How do you determine where the public may congregate, wouldn't that be everywhere?


Also, looks like you can save a li'l cash as they only require exit signs.


[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.electriciantalk.com/images/smilies/vs_smirk.gif[/IMG]
Here the route, the length of the route, and how many people are going to take that route is usually on the life safety plan.
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:59 AM   #14
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Still confused. This is a flat rate job. Extras are like pulling teeth. The default answer is “make it to code”. To have emergency lighting and no exits in a small restaurant makes no sense.

Do I need emergency lighting in bathrooms?
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:17 AM   #15
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Still confused. This is a flat rate job. Extras are like pulling teeth. The default answer is “make it to code”. To have emergency lighting and no exits in a small restaurant makes no sense.

Do I need emergency lighting in bathrooms?
I read through that document that Dave posted twice. I saw no mention of bathrooms. Here it is usually a fire code and under the authority of the fire marshal.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:23 AM   #16
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Still confused. This is a flat rate job. Extras are like pulling teeth. The default answer is “make it to code”. To have emergency lighting and no exits in a small restaurant makes no sense.

Do I need emergency lighting in bathrooms?
What I'll sometimes do is talk to the inspector for that district, or even the chief and ask him. I know them all so that's an advantage, because it's not up to them to tell you how to do things, but if you are nice and friendly they will usually point you in the right direction. If you're off home turf things might be different however.
My brother was a city mechanical inspector for 30+ years, and I know he would often help guys out as long as you weren't an a**hole about it.
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:09 PM   #17
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All great questions. I still battle with these frequently.

I have stopped trying to understand the reasoning for code rules a long time ago. Trying to figure out the rationale is usually fruitless (ie. public corridors vs corridors used by the public). "Don't try to find logic in stupidity" - unknown!!!

I show emergency remote heads in bathrooms but if there is any push back from the contractor on a fixed budget, I usually cave! I won't update the drawings but I also won't hold up the final occupancy. I can't find any reference that requires emergency light in a bathroom but some building inspectors require them regardless.

In my office, we frequently have projects with emergency lights and no exit signage. If the building already has exit signs, I will usually extend them. If there are exit signs anywhere, they should be everywhere. If half the building has the old red EXIT signage, we usually consult with the building inspector to determine if the new area needs RUNNING MAN or old red EXIT signage to match. Sometimes the building inspector wants the whole building upgraded to green RUNNING MAN.

If I were 99cents, I would recommend installing the economy battery packs in minimal locations until the building inspector is satisfied. Forget the exit lights unless you are in a 3 storey building (or up) or have more than 150 people total.

CAVEAT: Information presented in this post does not constitute professional engineering advice.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:34 PM   #18
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As far as I know em lights are not required in bathrooms here, but are often shown on engineered drawings.

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Old 01-20-2019, 06:28 PM   #19
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check with engineer who prepared the permit, it is a simple job, otherwise pretend you know nothing because no drawings from engineer or building permit.
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Old 01-23-2019, 09:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatz View Post
So in Canada, if you don't know enough to get out of the bathroom if the building's on fire, it's f. you, burn motherf'er?

I am all right with that, but they say Canadians are so nice, I think once you scratch the surface, they're pretty ****ing hostile.
Well, its a lot easier to be nice when a few of the poindexters that can't find their way out of a one exit bathroom have been burnt off.
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