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Help with this a/c breaker sizing

CEC 
27K views 73 replies 18 participants last post by  Somewhere_401 
#1 ·
I was told that with A/C's the breaker size does not have to be rated for the wire size. My friend is trying to sell their home and the esa inspector says that the 30 amp breaker needs to be replaced with a 20 amp breaker for the A/C unit. The A/C if fed with #12 wire. I have attached the name plate and it clearly states that the Min cct ampacity is 14.5 amps and the max breaker size is 30 amps.
Is the inspector wrong?
 

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#6 · (Edited)
So this rules says 50% of the LRA which is 53 amps? So 25 amps and thats not available for a cct breaker so bumped up to 30 amp breaker for this is fine given the cct ampacuty is 14.5A?

28-708 Overcurrent protection
(1) Except as permitted in Subrule (2), each ungrounded conductor of a branch circuit feeding a motorcompressor
shall be protected by an overcurrent device rated or set at not more than 50% of the locked
rotor current of the motor-compressor, unless such a device will not permit the motor-compressor to start,
in which case the rating or setting shall be permitted to be increased to a value not exceeding 65% of the
locked rotor current of the motor-compressor.
(2) Subrule (1) shall not be deemed to require use of overcurrent devices rated or set at less than 15 A.
 
#13 ·
I was told that with A/C's the breaker size does not have to be rated for the wire size. My friend is trying to sell their home and the esa inspector says that the 30 amp breaker needs to be replaced with a 20 amp breaker for the A/C unit. The A/C if fed with #12 wire. I have attached the name plate and it clearly states that the Min cct ampacity is 14.5 amps and the max breaker size is 30 amps.
Is the inspector wrong?
So the ESA is doing inspections before the sale of a home in Ontario? I like it! :thumbsup: Some jurisdictions in Alberta are moving in that direction as well.

Been close to 15 years since I left Ontario, so when did this begin, and is it throughout Ontario?

I would like to see more municipalities in Alberta insist on inspections before the sale of a home, or a business. Keeps the seller honest, and also helps keep the hacks out of our trade. You hacks, (you know who you are), need to be run out of town. :eek: :jester:

Borgi
 
#19 ·
Was probably a home inspector, not esa. Esa does not inspect homes before a sale.
Yes its an esa inspection called an ElecCheck. Its the new name for a general inspection apparently. There are 17 deficiencies on the list a lot of it has to do with aluminum wiring being wired to decora plugs, loose cables in the basement, this A/C issue and apparently there is no jumper for the water meter. i believe the buyer requested it due to the fact that the homes first floor is wired with aluminum.
My friend says that the inspector was really nice but seemed kind of new and was not really sure about the wiring for the A/C anyway. Here is a pic of the specific A/C deficiency.

I was also wondering about this other deficiency regarding receptacles near the sink (picture 2)
it says that they need to be swapped out for gfci type but I'm pretty sure these are going to be split receptacles. Should they be grandfathered in or does she have to pay for gfci plugs or worse... because they are splits, EXPENSIVE gfci breakers :blink:?
 

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#20 · (Edited)
hmm now looking at this rule im wondering if the inspector has a point? Or because it is an A/C unit we dont follow protection and ctrl from section 14 but section 28 instead?

EDIT: nevermind 14-104(c) pretty much answers my question.

14-104 Rating of overcurrent devices (see Appendix B)
(1) The rating or setting of overcurrent devices shall not exceed the allowable ampacity of the conductors that
they protect, except
(a) where a fuse or circuit breaker having a rating or setting of the same value as the ampacity of the
conductor is not available, the ratings or settings given in Table 13 shall be permitted to be used
within the maximum value of 600 A;
(b) in the case of equipment wire, flexible cord in sizes Nos. 16, 18, and 20 AWG copper, and tinsel cord,
which are considered protected by 15 A overcurrent devices; or
(c) as provided for by other Rules of this Code.

(2) Except as provided for by Subrule (1)(c), the rating of overcurrent protection shall not exceed
(a) 15 A for No. 14 AWG copper conductors;
(b) 20 A for No. 12 AWG copper conductors;
(c) 30 A for No. 10 AWG copper conductors; and
(d) 15 A for No. 12 AWG aluminum conductors.
 
#21 ·
hmm now looking at this rule im wondering if the inspector has a point? Or because it is an A/C unit we dont follow protection and ctrl from section 14 but section 28 instead?


(c) as provided for by other Rules of this Code.
The answer is always 'C' :laughing:
 
#24 ·
I was also wondering about this other deficiency regarding receptacles near the sink (picture 2)
it says that they need to be swapped out for gfci type but I'm pretty sure these are going to be split receptacles. Should they be grandfathered in or does she have to pay for gfci plugs or worse... because they are splits, EXPENSIVE gfci breakers :blink:?[/quote]
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Here is the link to the ESA TSB # 14-02FL under their Flash notices.

When you read the beginning sentence of this ESA Flash Notice, it does make me wonder if this inspector actually knows what is going on. Has the kitchen been renovated / updated ? If not, then they are trying to apply current code to a grandfathered condition. If work was done, then again, if no walls were opened up, then again, it "should" be grandfathered. Should it be updated yes, but is it a violation, I would say no, because as long as it passed when it was installed originally, then it ought to be fine.

Whats next, write up for not having AfCI on the bedroom circuits? No TR devices?

Some code changes are retroactive, most are not.

I wonder if this inspector had previous training as a home inspector instead. Is it a deficiency, yes, but not one that would require a write up the way it is worded as long as it was pre-existing.


https://www.esasafe.com/assets/files/esasafe/pdf/Flash_Notices/14-02-FL.pdf
 
#25 · (Edited)
TechieBecky said:
hmm now looking at this rule im wondering if the inspector has a point? Or because it is an A/C unit we dont follow protection and ctrl from section 14 but section 28 instead? EDIT: nevermind 14-104(c) pretty much answers my question.
14-104(c) tells you that section 28 overrules it. As for the kitchen receptacles, if the house was built before the 2002(or was it 2005...I can't remember) CEC, it was not required to have GFCI protection for countertops.
 
#33 ·
well i went over to their place and the a/c is actually wired with 10/2 its red romex. The weird thing is that there is a fused disconnect on the inside wall of the basement near the air conditioner. The disconnect is fused with 20 amp glass screw in fuses. I can't find anywhere in section 28 that requires a disconnect near the AC. can they just have the disconnect removed and replaced with a junction box?
 
#35 ·
--

I think you have just proven that this inspector is so green that he / she has trouble understanding anything that is not current off the shelf current code.

Yes, there is supposed to be a disconnect by the a/c unit. This is so that work can be done on this unit and the technician is able to disconnect power to the unit and is able to continue to ensure that the it is safe for him / her.

The fac that there is a disconnect inside is most likely simply a sub-panel as the original panel was full.

However, IF this was clearly visible, then the question becomes, just what exactly did the ESA inspector see??:eek: Where is the 30 amp c/b?
I think the customer should get a refund for the inspection, however that is rather unlikely.
 
#42 ·
In regards to the splits on the counter near the sink. One of the split receptacles is ganged with a switch that controls a light above the sink. This split has to be changed for a gfci as per the inspectors requirements. Now instead of having to remove the box to add an additional gfci receptacle, would it be code compliant to replace the toggle switch with this combo gfci?
http://www.legrand.ca/passandseymou...sistant/combination-switch/1595swttrwcc4.aspx
This would reduce their cost substantially although I'm unsure if full receptacle is required.
I looked around for her for Commander double pole 15 amp gfci breakers and nobody has them or knows where to find them.
 
#47 ·
In regards to the splits on the counter near the sink. One of the split receptacles is ganged with a switch that controls a light above the sink. This split has to be changed for a gfci as per the inspectors requirements. Now instead of having to remove the box to add an additional gfci receptacle, would it be code compliant to replace the toggle switch with this combo gfci?
http://www.legrand.ca/passandseymou...sistant/combination-switch/1595swttrwcc4.aspx
This would reduce their cost substantially although I'm unsure if full receptacle is required.
I looked around for her for Commander double pole 15 amp gfci breakers and nobody has them or knows where to find them.

I dont see a problem with that solution although you may want to get the inspectors ok for it.
 
#48 ·
within 1.5 meters of a sink you need a 20amp t-slot gfci with #12 wire. thats the code. the light that is fed from the existing split is not to code, it cant share the circuit. you dont have #12 wire going to the split so how can you possibly bring it up to code without rewiring your kitchen? the commander 2 pole gfci breakers are available and would solve the problem with the outlet. if its a 2 gang box with one switch and one receptacle the make the receptacle a gfci and cap 1 wire. thats it. the inspector cant force you to rewire anything.
 
#50 ·
I have said it before and I will say it again.

Everyone is arguing the code issues, but here is the real item.

This "inspector" missed the fact that there is a disconnect for the a/c INSIDE that was on a 20 amp fuse! This is already protected.:eek:

This inspector missed the fact that it is wired on 10/2! No is it 10/2 AL or 10/2 CU?

This inspector did not advise about the ESA Flash notice for dealing with an EXISTING kitchen that is no longer compliant. The implication by the inspector is that it has to be replaced. Why?!

This inspector was brought in to identify issues, which apparently they did find (Al/CU mix, improper fixtures etc.)
 
#52 ·
My guess is that the inspector walked in, saw decoras everywhere, and went from there. Its very common for people to upgrade to decora improperly with aluminum wiring. When he saw decoras in the kitchen he then enforced the gfci protection rule.
As for the AC unit im not entirely sure but something tells me that disconnect being in the house is not "in-sight"
 
#55 ·
Or, perhaps you're not saying that the light is fed from the split now, but
would be if the combo switch/plug were to be used. That's also what NDC
is suggesting (I think). Seems a valid point.
 
#56 ·
I don't chime in to often but enjoy reading this forum. I would like to give my two cents here. I know from a quick look at your profile that you are an apprentice and I hope that you continue in the trade. A lot of the threads here fall off the rails so in the interest of keeping this one track, I will try and resolve your issues on this topic.
If your friend had ESA come and do the home inspection than he is now responsible to take care of the deficiencies.
The AC problem is simple the unit says 30 amp max therefor the wiring has to be 10/2. If the inspector mis identified the feed wire as 12/2 then all you have to do is show him that. He was right in asking for a 20amp breaker if the wire was actually 12/2. Your are protecting the conductors first.
The split receptacles issue is simple, if the circuits are existing and nothing was changed then you do not have to bring it up to today's code. All the input on replacing the receptacles with a gfci or replacing the breaker with 2-pole gfci breaker are not necessary.
All the other deficiencies must be dealt with to satisfy the inspection report
Your friend will have to have an electrical contractor pull out a permit for him to do all the repairs to satisfy the original inspection
He will be able to deal with the inspectors findings and speak to him if the AC is actually fed with the 10/3 as well as the counter receptacles issues.
The contractor would also know how to deal with all your aluminum problems.
I'm not sure what type of electrical work you are doing right now but either way you should get yourself the new code book and bulletins. The 2015 code comes into effect here in Ontario May 5th
Sorry for the long reply
 
#60 ·
The AC problem is simple the unit says 30 amp max therefor the wiring has to be 10/2. If the inspector mis identified the feed wire as 12/2 then all you have to do is show him that. He was right in asking for a 20amp breaker if the wire was actually 12/2. Your are protecting the conductors first.
Conductors here are protected within the compressor ... assuming it's CSA cert.
The correct answer was given back in post #3 (ref to NEC, but CEC handles hermetically sealed motors in sec 28)

The A/C unit is a motor, not an appliance.

It was mentioned in an earlier post about GFCI in kitchens, this req was adopted in 2002 CEC.

Disconnects for A/C came in the 90's ? And unlike a motor, has to be within 10' of A/C (no lock out provision)
 
#63 · (Edited)
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