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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:22 AM   #21
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This thread outlines a good example of the code requiring installations for design only (2 15A circuits on one receptacle), which actually are impeding very important safety installations (GFCIs in kitchen).

In the end, as long as you appease the code gods, who cares if you leave the customer with a dangerous situation? [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.electriciantalk.com/images/smilies/sad.png[/IMG]
?? What code are you talking about that leaves the customer in a dangerous situation?
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:26 AM   #22
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?? What code are you talking about that leaves the customer in a dangerous situation?
Just taking a wild stab in the dark here but.....

Maybe the one that doesn't make GFCIs in areas with sinks and water a requirement?
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:29 AM   #23
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Quote:
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?? What code are you talking about that leaves the customer in a dangerous situation?
Just taking a wild stab in the dark here but.....

Maybe the one that doesn't make GFCIs in areas with sinks and water a requirement?
No such code. Gfi’s are required near sinks in Canada
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:52 AM   #24
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No such code. Gfi’s are required near sinks in Canada
Have you read this whole thread?
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:53 AM   #25
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No such code. Gfi’️s are required near sinks in Canada
Have you read this whole thread?
Yes, and I own a Canadian code book.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:55 AM   #26
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Yes, and I own a Canadian code book.
Go have some more coffee and come back and read the posts again.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 08:23 AM   #27
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There is no code requiring installations for design only which actually are impeding very important safety installations as suggested in post #20.

Before GFI’s were invented, we had to install either a SP 20 amp circuit or a DP 15 amp circuit for kitchen counter receptacles. More often it was a 15 am DP split receptacle.

Today's code is if the receptacle is close to a sink, it needs to be GFI protected.

Now if your just replacing an old receptacle, say to a new decora style, and it is one of those DP 15 amp split receptacles, you would have to also replace the breaker with a GFI one to meet the new code. Because your just replacing the receptacle and not changing the wiring, Ontario allows you to do so without changing the breaker because there are no split GFI receptacles. This is NOT in the code, it is an Ontario amendment. They recommend you GFI it anyway and offer a few ways to do so and that is what we are talking about in this thread.

Just like if you replaced an old receptacle in a bedroom, you do not have to replace the breaker with an ARC fault one to meet todays code.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 08:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
There is no code requiring installations for design only which actually are impeding very important safety installations as suggested in post #20.

Before GFI’s were invented, we had to install either a SP 20 amp circuit or a DP 15 amp circuit for kitchen counter receptacles. More often it was a 15 am DP split receptacle.

Today's code is if the receptacle is close to a sink, it needs to be GFI protected.

Now if your just replacing an old receptacle, say to a new decora style, and it is one of those DP 15 amp split receptacles, you would have to also replace the breaker with a GFI one to meet the new code. Because your just replacing the receptacle and not changing the wiring, Ontario allows you to do so without changing the breaker because there are no split GFI receptacles. This is NOT in the code, it is an Ontario amendment. They recommend you GFI it anyway and offer a few ways to do so and that is what we are talking about in this thread.

Just like if you replaced an old receptacle in a bedroom, you do not have to replace the breaker with an ARC fault one to meet todays code.
I was under the impression that the old code only allowed 15A splits for kitchen counters, and that the 1P 20 was a fairly recent (last 20ish years) change.

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Unread 08-07-2019, 08:35 AM   #29
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I was under the impression that the old code only allowed 15A splits for kitchen counters, and that the 1P 20 was a fairly recent (last 20ish years) change.

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No the 20 amp SP option was always there as well. And the split 15 amp DP is still there too. It’s just that we have to GFI protect them now and that is why most go with the SP 20.


Edited;
Actually you were right. It used to be only split DP 15 amp circuits for kitchen counters before 2006.
The split receptacle requirement is still there and We still can install the DP 15's on kitchen counters as long as they are not near a sink.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
There is no code requiring installations for design only which actually are impeding very important safety installations as suggested in post #20.

Before GFI’s were invented, we had to install either a SP 20 amp circuit or a DP 15 amp circuit for kitchen counter receptacles. More often it was a 15 am DP split receptacle.

Today's code is if the receptacle is close to a sink, it needs to be GFI protected.

Now if your just replacing an old receptacle, say to a new decora style, and it is one of those DP 15 amp split receptacles, you would have to also replace the breaker with a GFI one to meet the new code. Because your just replacing the receptacle and not changing the wiring, Ontario allows you to do so without changing the breaker because there are no split GFI receptacles. This is NOT in the code, it is an Ontario amendment. They recommend you GFI it anyway and offer a few ways to do so and that is what we are talking about in this thread.

Just like if you replaced an old receptacle in a bedroom, you do not have to replace the breaker with an ARC fault one to meet todays code.


Ahh, clarity at last....was it the coffee?
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Unread 08-07-2019, 09:09 AM   #31
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Unread 08-07-2019, 10:05 AM   #32
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Ummm no you need a two pole GFI breaker. Check your pricing or estimate $350 per circuit. Make sure there's space in the panel and you can get one.
In Ontario you can install another receptacle and put each one on its own circuit or use a double pole breaker for an existing installation upgrade.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
This thread outlines a good example of the code requiring installations for design only (2 15A circuits on one receptacle), which actually are impeding very important safety installations (GFCIs in kitchen).

In the end, as long as you appease the code gods, who cares if you leave the customer with a dangerous situation? [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.electriciantalk.com/images/smilies/sad.png[/IMG]
?? What code are you talking about that leaves the customer in a dangerous situation?
Well you boys can go and throw two GFI's in sharing the neutral on a 3 wire and get back to me about how it didn't work.

I think Hack is referring to the cost to fix something like that, or leaving it existing nonconforming to save that cost. It's more than just two GFI Plugs, it's a 2 pole GFI breaker $250+ per circuit. If you have a FPE panel I feel like $300+ is likely. Not a lot of people wanna spend $600 on something that's been fine for the last 20+ yrs.

(I don't know what happened haha, those were the most recent posts when I looked and now I'm 3 hrs behind, stupid BlackBerry)

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Unread 08-07-2019, 10:44 AM   #33
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I think Hack is referring to the cost to fix something like that, or leaving it existing nonconforming to save that cost. )
It is not nonconforming. I agree for safety there should be GFI's in a kitchen but it is a relatively new code.

The GFI in kitchen code only came out in 2006. They can't force everyone who owns a home built before that to change for new code. Same as the arc fault codes required now.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 11:26 AM   #34
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I'm having troubles this morning with the forum so forgive me if my other post shows up again

S*** and there it is haha.

It was legal when it was done and if you don't touch it it's legal thru grandfathering "existing nonconforming". I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. The trick is how the inspector feels about it, if king s*** wants it, he/she shall have it!

If you leave it as existing non conforming then you don't have any GFI protection and you could potentially save the customers 250 dollars per circuit depending on panel type and brand. If you have an FPE panel I would be ball parking more in the $300 plus range since it's hard to get your hands on those. That's also assuming that there's enough space in the panel to cram in the GFI breaker.

You can't put GFI receptacles in that share a neutral on a 3 wire. The first one sets, the second one won't or if they are both set from factory something will blow when you turn on the breaker.

Can be pretty hard to talk people into throwing 500 bucks at something that's worked for the last 30 years.

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Unread 08-07-2019, 11:34 AM   #35
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You can't put GFI receptacles in that share a neutral on a 3 wire. The first one sets, the second one won't or if they are both set from factory something will blow when you turn on the breaker.
I disagree
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Unread 08-07-2019, 12:00 PM   #36
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Can be pretty hard to talk people into throwing 500 bucks at something that's worked for the last 30 years.
And the electrical code should address that.

GFCI's are extremely important. They are one of the most basic and smart things to install in a dwelling. Out of all the code requirements that we argue about their merit, GFCIs are the one that no one can argue, they work well to save lives.

Requiring (2) 15A circuits to the receptacle is a design thing that the code should never have required. Now the code makers have egg on their face because their stupid requirement is causing people to not upgrade to GFCI protection in situations that they need them due to the extreme cost to mitigate the stupidly left over from the old (2) 15A bologna.

Today the code should be change to make provisions to allow GFCIs to be installed in ways that are reasonable in order to entice people to have it done.

There is a giant problem if someone says "I am having electrical work done in my kitchen, but I am not having GFCI protection installed because it would cost hundreds of dollars extra". That needs to be addressed.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 12:21 PM   #37
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There wouldn't even be a discussion as to whether I'm be putting in GFCI's. If I'm the electrician on a kitchen renovation they are getting and paying for GFCI's.

I don't care if its in the US or Canada.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 01:04 PM   #38
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And the electrical code should address that.

GFCI's are extremely important. They are one of the most basic and smart things to install in a dwelling. Out of all the code requirements that we argue about their merit, GFCIs are the one that no one can argue, they work well to save lives.

Requiring (2) 15A circuits to the receptacle is a design thing that the code should never have required. Now the code makers have egg on their face because their stupid requirement is causing people to not upgrade to GFCI protection in situations that they need them due to the extreme cost to mitigate the stupidly left over from the old (2) 15A bologna.

Today the code should be change to make provisions to allow GFCIs to be installed in ways that are reasonable in order to entice people to have it done.

There is a giant problem if someone says "I am having electrical work done in my kitchen, but I am not having GFCI protection installed because it would cost hundreds of dollars extra". That needs to be addressed.
I agree with you on this and the electrician should not even offer anything but GFI protection. The OP should not have told the customer that this amendment is an option as well.

The code is clear but it is for a new installation. The Ontario amendment is more for someone who is just replacing an old or broken receptacle, not for a reno.
99.9% of inspectors will tell you they want the GFI upgrade in a reno as well, especially if the cabinets are being replaced and or the walls are being opened.
100% of home inspectors call it a defect when your trying to sell a house as well.
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Unread 08-15-2019, 07:54 AM   #39
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No the 20 amp SP option was always there as well. And the split 15 amp DP is still there too. It’s just that we have to GFI protect them now and that is why most go with the SP 20.


Edited;
Actually you were right. It used to be only split DP 15 amp circuits for kitchen counters before 2006.
The split receptacle requirement is still there and We still can install the DP 15's on kitchen counters as long as they are not near a sink.
Are you sure it wasn't 2002 code cycle? IIRC, GFCI protection had to be installed with that code update.

(I'm not that old, but ESA has their look up tool and referenced the date it came into effect... I had to look this up for a home inspector one day...)

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Unread 08-15-2019, 08:01 AM   #40
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Look at the diagram I posted. You’re allowed to unsplit them.
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