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Old 08-11-2018, 12:16 AM   #1
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Default No ground wire in 480v 3w PVC

Is it possible for there to be no ground wire in an under ground PVC feeder conduit? Its 480v 3 wire. Doing demo and noticed this between two buildings in an industrial compound (all on one property). Is this an ungrounded or impedance grounded system? Please be gentle I have limited experience with this situation.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:20 AM   #2
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In an industrial setting it could very well be ungrounded delta. The only way to know for sure is to look at the main service transformers and see how they are hooked up.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:27 AM   #3
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In an industrial setting it could very well be ungrounded delta. The only way to know for sure is to look at the main service transformers and see how they are hooked up.
If its 3 wires and not 4, wouldn't it be just that? I found the code rule (10-206) that says a system has to be solidly grounded if it would be over 150v to ground or if it has a neutral, but I'm looking for more. I need to put a case together for my project manager as to why I don't have to pull a ground in this ****ty pipe run haha.
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:47 AM   #4
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I know this is the CEC but the Nec used to allow feeder to a remote structure without a ground. At the structure you would wire it as a service would be wired. That code changed back in 2005 I think. Maybe Canada had a similar rule
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:49 AM   #5
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I know this is the CEC but the Nec used to allow feeder to a remote structure without a ground. At the structure you would wire it as a service would be wired. That code changed back in 2005 I think. Maybe Canada had a similar rule
Oh damn I would love to know more haha
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:53 AM   #6
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Is this feeding a panel? and I assume 3 phase. There must be a trany to get a neutral on the system
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:00 AM   #7
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Around here you will still see floating deltas but it's in mines and such with primary metering. The biggest problem is when they ground there self in a motor jb or such, the first one is free the second one powee!
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:42 AM   #8
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PVC must have a bond in it regardless of what it is for. CEC 12-1122

There is a code that allows the feed to a separate building to be wired without a bond where you install ground rods at the out building like @Dennis Alwon mentioned. 10-208(1) This is commonly done using overhead wiring. If the feed is in PVC though, you still must install a bond in the run as per 12-1122, but isolate it from the ground at the out building.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:42 PM   #9
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PVC must have a bond in it regardless of what it is for. CEC 12-1122

There is a code that allows the feed to a separate building to be wired without a bond where you install ground rods at the out building like @Dennis Alwon mentioned. 10-208(1) This is commonly done using overhead wiring. If the feed is in PVC though, you still must install a bond in the run as per 12-1122, but isolate it from the ground at the out building.
Ah thank you. What if it is between the MDP in one building and the transformer in another smaller building, would it meet the requirements for 12-1122(2)?
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:05 PM   #10
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PVC must have a bond in it regardless of what it is for. CEC 12-1122

There is a code that allows the feed to a separate building to be wired without a bond where you install ground rods at the out building like @Dennis Alwon mentioned. 10-208(1) This is commonly done using overhead wiring. If the feed is in PVC though, you still must install a bond in the run as per 12-1122, but isolate it from the ground at the out building.
Ah thank you. What if it is between the MDP in one building and the transformer in another smaller building, would it meet the requirements for 12-1122(2)?
There is no sub rule (2) ? What codebook are you using?

Because it is PVC, You must have a bond in that run.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:07 PM   #11
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Cec 2018, are you using the 2015?
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:13 PM   #12
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Cec 2018, are you using the 2015?
2015 Yes. The 2018 has not been adopted as code yet.


As for the new sub rule in the 2018, 12-1122(2), that only applies to PVC from a meter base to the main because you are allowed to bond the metal meter base with the neutral.
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:55 PM   #13
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2015 Yes. The 2018 has not been adopted as code yet.


As for the new sub rule in the 2018, 12-1122(2), that only applies to PVC from a meter base to the main because you are allowed to bond the metal meter base with the neutral.
Hypothetically what if its a delta corner grounded system? Would that make a difference?
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:00 PM   #14
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Hypothetically what if its a delta corner grounded system? Would that make a difference?
That's got my wheels turning. Trying to think if I've ever seen a corner grounded delta underground feeder to a remote building and how I might go about accomplishing that.

No matter. Carry on.
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:04 PM   #15
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Hypothetically what if its a delta corner grounded system? Would that make a difference?
Nope. A bond is different than a grounded conductor.
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:09 PM   #16
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Nope. A bond is different than a grounded conductor.
right. in this case though, both boxes the PVC ties into are bonded but not through that same PVC conduit. If one of the phases of the delta is grounded and both boxes are bonded to ground, what would the point of a bonding conductor in the conduit be?
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:37 PM   #17
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right. in this case though, both boxes the PVC ties into are bonded but not through that same PVC conduit. If one of the phases of the delta is grounded and both boxes are bonded to ground, what would the point of a bonding conductor in the conduit be?
The point is that you need a bond in the plastic raceway. You canít rely on a grounded conductor as your bond.


There are two ways to do it.

1. Run a bond with the feed to provide a bond in the raceway and at the outbuilding. Connect all metal in the outbuilding to that bond.


Or


2. Run a bond with the feed but isolate it from the outbuilding. Install a ground rod at the outbuilding and bond everything to it.


In either case, if your feed is done in a raceway, there must be a bond in the raceway.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:55 AM   #18
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It is interesting that Canada allowed overhead feeder to not have an equipment grounding conductor but you have to have it in pvc. Not sure why that requirement is allowed. They make quadraplex. Perhaps for 3 phase systems?
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Old 08-12-2018, 08:47 AM   #19
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It is interesting that Canada allowed overhead feeder to not have an equipment grounding conductor but you have to have it in pvc. Not sure why that requirement is allowed. They make quadraplex. Perhaps for 3 phase systems?
My best guess is maybe because it is in a raceway opposed to free air overhead?



Is there no code in the NEC that says you must have a bond (egc) in a run of rigid PVC?
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