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Old 10-23-2018, 03:01 PM   #1
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Default OCOT winding down, 1 to 1 ratio

Doug Ford just announced some proposed changes to apprenticeship in Ontario like getting rid of the College of Trades and going to a 1 to 1 ratio for all trades.

Personally I see the need for the ratio in other trades like brick layers for instance , but for electrical there is no shortage of apprentices, more like line ups of workers wanting to get in this trade. Also there are currently many journeymen out of work so allowing more apprentices with this lower ratio will put more journeymen out of work.

https://news.ontario.ca/maesd/en/201...ip-system.html

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Old 10-28-2018, 12:02 AM   #2
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Young guy also need chance and jobs
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:04 PM   #3
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Young guy also need chance and jobs
Who is stopping them now? The Union in my area takes in over 100 apprentices a year as is. Many non union donít follow ratios anyway as there is no enforcement. OCOT has never charged a company for violating the ratio. All this will do is put more licenced guys out of work and apprentices will get less training on the job.

Taking a job from someone and giving it to someone else is not creating more jobs.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:16 PM   #4
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You need to get into the booming cannabis industry.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:45 PM   #5
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You need to get into the booming cannabis industry.
Somebody has to wire up all those lights and exhaust fans
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:43 PM   #6
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I have never been a fan of the ratio process once I figured it out. To me it seems counter-intuitive from a training and education perspective. During the ratio review process in 2012 I submitted a discussion paper that entirely reworked the entire concept of ratios; too far out for it to be accepted by OCOT.

https://www.collegeoftrades.ca/wp-co...or-website.pdf

I know there is strong influence in the public sector and union environments that connect "personnel safety" to ratios, but I have yet to see any correlation to this in any research.

You are also right that there is zero enforcement of the ratios, so who cares... if it is not going to be enforced it is a useless regulation and should be removed from the books. I say fully enforce the regulation and get everyone back on the level playing field.

The last thing that is required, is a detailed "Scope of Work". We constantly circle the bouy of what is and what is not electrical work. A clear definition of Scope will help set that out so the proper people are doing the proper work and are being trained at the proper time.

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Old 11-03-2018, 04:44 PM   #7
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Ratio review process. what a joke that was.

Hopefully you didn’t spend too much time on your paper @Navyguy as they had no interest in listening to anyone. It was all just so they could say they discussed it with “industry professionals”, but had no intention on listening, their mind was made up already.

My concern with the new ratio coming is how contractors can and will lay off journeyman to replace them with more apprentices. (I’m talking about union contractors because it is well known that most non union don’t bother following the ratio, use labourers and unregistered helpers etc) Then, when those apprentices get their licence, they will also get replaced for more apprentices while the number of unemployed journeyman grows.

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Old 11-03-2018, 06:54 PM   #8
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Actually I had it in the works for a while, before the OCOT was even around. It just gave me a reason to dig it out and dust it off.

I think you are right; I believe it was determined in advance what the outcome would be and they were simply looking for support. But hey, if you don't participate you can't complain.

I also agree with your sediment about adhering to the ratios, but I would speculate that it happens on the union jobs too. I could be totally wrong, but I bet if you actually walked on a large job site and did a count, the count would be way off.

I suspect you are correct too when talking about the "revolving door" at some places. Having said that, I believe most LECs that are non-union are pretty small (less then 10 people) and I suspect their people are pretty loyal and don't jump from LEC to LEC. Most LECs frown on that as they can easily see if the guy is just trying to "climb the ladder" or if he is really going to contribute to the success of the company.

I have encouraged apprentices to move on once they get their ticket. Not that I would want to loose them, but if they are there with a bunch of long-term guys, they will always be considered the apprentice and don't fully get a chance to spread their wings as it were.

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Old 11-03-2018, 07:43 PM   #9
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I also agree with your sediment about adhering to the ratios, but I would speculate that it happens on the union jobs too. I could be totally wrong, but I bet if you actually walked on a large job site and did a count, the count would be way off.

John
The ratio is company wide, not per job which is another problem in itself. And yes, union ECís stretch the rules but many locals keep track of the amount of apprentices there are at a company where non union have no one looking into it at all.
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Old 11-03-2018, 08:06 PM   #10
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I have to think that the “tracking” of apprentice ratios happens at the “Transfer of Apprenticeship Contract” stage. If I want to take on another apprentice I have to show how many JPs I have and they (MCTU) approve the contract transfer. Now the issue is that if I do not do the transfer, the apprentice cannot claim the hours, so it is in the interest of the apprentice to not work without the contract transfer happening.

Are there apprentices working “without a contract”? I suspect there are, because they need to put food on the table. So the risk / reward falls on the LEC and if they are willing to take the risk (of which there is minimal) of employing an apprentice over the ratio and the apprentice understands that they cannot collect their hours; both are complicate in the activity.

So it is kinda like the legalization of pot conversation, if everybody is doing it (which is a bit of an extreme) and there is little to no enforcement, why do we bother trying to enforce it?

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Old 11-03-2018, 10:21 PM   #11
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This has EVERTHING to do with big companies lobbying government.

They tell them that it's the labour costs driving the high prices.

It's all about having lower paid workers do the work. Ultimately, that means less higher skilled workers (aka "US") on the job.


All comes down to the almighty buck $$ ... and it ain't going in the workers pockets. !
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:38 PM   #12
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I think this is true to a point, but I don't think that is the crux of it. The largest wage gap between the apprentice and journeyperson is only one year, and it reduces every year after that. Now unless you are not increasing that apprentice's wages at all, then the delta is minimal over the long run.

I believe it is more related to the notion that skilled trades are dwindling and the government's desire to put more people in the workforce, especially young people.

Especially in Ontario, where trades are overly regulated, it is often viewed as a virtual impossibility for apprenticeship or even opportunity.

I don't think it is really about the money for / from companies, it is about the optics of looking like the government is trying to crack the door open for more jobs which equal more votes and less people relying on the dole.

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Old 11-03-2018, 10:50 PM   #13
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And from the governments point of view, 1 journeyman on the dole is better than 2 potential apprentices on the dole.

It also helps the 'big' contractors reduce their bids on government projects.


We've already seen part of this fight with having labourers install conduit for the LRT here in Ottawa.

Bottom line is it could be good for taxpayers, no so good for experienced tradespeople, IMO.
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