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Old 01-31-2020, 07:51 AM   #1
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Default Procedure to determine if NMD 90 exposed to flood damage needs to be replaced.

Hi I've been a quiet observer in the forum. I am a Red Seal Journeyman in Alberta, pretty green still as I've had my ticket for just over 2 years and 6 years in the trade. I am currently working for a renovation crew, and we are doing disaster recovery for a hotel that suffered severe water damage. A 4 inch pipe burst in the attic, and damaged all 6 floors. This happened just over a week ago. My question is how do I determine if the loomex needs to be replaced. I have done some Megger tests and so far got very good readings for everything I've tested, even circuits where the wire feels damp to the touch ( jacket) and the ends are starting to show corrosion. Side note this is a very new installation, hotel opened a couple of months ago. Any help and advise is greatly appreciated!



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Old 01-31-2020, 09:52 AM   #2
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There are some materials on this subject from the US FEMA, the federales that respond to flood disasters and all that.

The big problem is if the cable is submerged where the jacket is open. The paper insulation wicks the water up. If there are boxes below the waterline, those cables probably have to be replaced.

(I am not sure why this matters from an electrical perspective because the conductors in the NM these days are rated THHN / THWN - they're OK for wet locations and would be OK in conduit that has water laying in it for years.)

There's no problem with the usual exposure to the elements you have when under construction, even leaving NM unterminated for months in a half finished house, passes. I don't know how much worse this flood was than rainfall type exposure.
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:12 AM   #3
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By chance was it part of the Nova chain?
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:22 AM   #4
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There are some materials on this subject from the US FEMA, the federales that respond to flood disasters and all that.

The big problem is if the cable is submerged where the jacket is open. The paper insulation wicks the water up. If there are boxes below the waterline, those cables probably have to be replaced.

(I am not sure why this matters from an electrical perspective because the conductors in the NM these days are rated THHN / THWN - they're OK for wet locations and would be OK in conduit that has water laying in it for years.)

There's no problem with the usual exposure to the elements you have when under construction, even leaving NM unterminated for months in a half finished house, passes. I don't know how much worse this flood was than rainfall type exposure.
Canada doesn't use paper in nmd.
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Old 01-31-2020, 10:46 AM   #5
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So they let you guys up there wire non metallic sheathed cables in 6 floor construction? This would not have been the case down south.
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:18 PM   #6
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I find it hard to believe water could damage NMD90. It's plastic. Devices, on the other hand, could get corroded. Strip some clean wire for new devices where needed and call it a day.
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Old 01-31-2020, 12:38 PM   #7
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Well nmd is rated for damp locations.. There could be an issue if it was fully submerged for a period of time but it sounds like short duration. I worked on a condo when the Bow river overflowed and the Electric room was fully or at least 5' deep in water for a week. That was bad.

I'd say visual inspection and if you want to take it further megger a few wires. Replace any devices that were submerged and check any splices. The stuff in wall is pretty safe just where the jacket is cut open that I might worry but I'm not worried.
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Old 01-31-2020, 01:00 PM   #8
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When Calgary had the flooding back awhile ago, insurance company's made it very clear that devices(of course) and panels needed to be changed out but as far as I know, all the wire stayed and a lot of that was under for a week.


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Old 01-31-2020, 01:53 PM   #9
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So they let you guys up there wire non metallic sheathed cables in 6 floor construction? This would not have been the case down south.
Yup. My brother just finished a 6 story hotel that is ICF and wood framing with NMD cable.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.
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Old 01-31-2020, 02:06 PM   #10
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Thanks guys, kind of along the lines of what I was thinking. Interesting to hear that even when submerged in water the NMD 90 may still be good. What about device boxes? I'm concerned about rust...


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Old 01-31-2020, 02:10 PM   #11
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The actual issue is not electrical -- it's MOLD.

Mold destroys the economic value of a building.

The trade even has an alphabet for it: WDB -- a Water Damaged Building.

Folks can't live around a WDB.

Without paper in the composition, you're probably in good shape.

Inspect, first, where you'd expect the worst conditions to have occurred.

Meg everything every which way. -- Remove loads, of course.

Get the EEs and Inspectors to sign off -- INCLUDE the health inspector.

Take swabs and have them tested by expert labs -- yes these exist -- and they issue test kits.

I'd expect that the sheet rock is ruined all over the place. So you can do your 'thing' with naked walls.

Sheet rock will wick up ruinous amounts of water in no-time flat.
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Old 01-31-2020, 02:11 PM   #12
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By chance was it part of the Nova chain?


Not Nova lol


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Old 01-31-2020, 05:53 PM   #13
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Yup. My brother just finished a 6 story hotel that is ICF and wood framing with NMD cable.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.


Yeah that's exactly like this one, hate cutting raceways in the ICF


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Old 01-31-2020, 06:03 PM   #14
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Yeah that's exactly like this one, hate cutting raceways in the ICF


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I hear a hot knife is the perfect tool for this...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.
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Old 01-31-2020, 07:35 PM   #15
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Found this when I was researching flood damage a while back. May be worth the read.
https://www.nema.org/Standards/Pages...Equipment.aspx
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Old 01-31-2020, 08:49 PM   #16
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This is from Ontario, but I suspect everybody pretty much has the same.

Cheers

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Old 02-01-2020, 03:38 AM   #17
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Found this when I was researching flood damage a while back. May be worth the read.
https://www.nema.org/Standards/Pages...Equipment.aspx
That's an excellent resource, thanks for posting.

https://www.nema.org/Standards/Secur...ment-Guide.pdf
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Old 02-01-2020, 06:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Yeah that's exactly like this one, hate cutting raceways in the ICF


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I hear a hot knife is the perfect tool for this...

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.
Get a cheap electric chain saw👍
The cut is the right size to hold NMD.
Just be prepared to use a broom afterwards
( Dont let anyone see you sweep up, That would give electricians a bad name)
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:30 AM   #19
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So they let you guys up there wire non metallic sheathed cables in 6 floor construction? This would not have been the case down south.
Depends on the construction type classification. The "3 stories rule" was removed from the NEC several cycles ago.
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Old 02-03-2020, 09:30 AM   #20
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Last week Calgary AB is allowing wood structures as high as 12 stories.


Tim.
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