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Old 08-28-2019, 11:41 PM   #1
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Default Replacing ungrounded 2 prong with 3 prong receptacle

I'm doing a renovation job on an older home with the outlets missing the bonding conductor. I will be switching them out for the 3 prong receptacles and be placing them under a DFCI breaker. How do you go about the bonding beyond the breaker? I'm reading 26-702 and understand it as not to bond any of the receptacles
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:22 AM   #2
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Without a bonding conductor, there is nothing to bond the receptacles to.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:59 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by danny6o4 View Post
I'm doing a renovation job on an older home with the outlets missing the bonding conductor. I will be switching them out for the 3 prong receptacles and be placing them under a DFCI breaker. How do you go about the bonding beyond the breaker? I'm reading 26-702 and understand it as not to bond any of the receptacles
You don't bond anything beyond the breaker. The GFCI part of the DFCI provides the protection. A bond is normally used as a path for fault current, the GFCI mitigates the fault current and provides a defacto bond. It's really a band-aid for the situation you have encountered, you can't use this method anywhere else I can think of.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:05 AM   #4
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The Ground Fault detection is protecting the cct. You are installing 3 prong plugs so the customer can actually plug something into it without busting off the grounding prong.


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Old 08-29-2019, 01:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by danny6o4 View Post
I'm doing a renovation job on an older home with the outlets missing the bonding conductor. I will be switching them out for the 3 prong receptacles and be placing them under a DFCI breaker. How do you go about the bonding beyond the breaker? I'm reading 26-702 and understand it as not to bond any of the receptacles

Maybe it's different in Canada. If by "renovating" the walls are being opened, you're installing new circuits that are grounded and compliant.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:22 PM   #6
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Maybe it's different in Canada. If by "renovating" the walls are being opened, you're installing new circuits that are grounded and compliant.
That would be the case in Canada as well.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:38 PM   #7
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I do think it is important to identify to the customer that the circuits still are not grounded; while in most lighting applications that is not an issue, but people plugging in UPS and surge protectors or some other electronic equipment might need to know this.

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Old 08-29-2019, 02:39 PM   #8
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I do think it is important to identify to the customer that the circuits still are not grounded; while in most lighting applications that is not an issue, but people plugging in UPS and surge protectors or some other electronic equipment might need to know this.

Cheers
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GFCI's come with stickers saying that there isn't a ground there and our code says that you are supposed to put them on the receptacle.
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:45 PM   #9
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GFCI's come with stickers saying that there isn't a ground there and our code says that you are supposed to put them on the receptacle.
That is correct. Does not mean that the client understands what is happening at the receptacle.

For a lot of things it does not matter too much as most things are two-pronged appliances such as clock radios, table lamps, etc. However some things that people have need the ground (bond) such as a network switch, routers, some large TVs, etc. If you plug in some portable UPS as an example you will get a fault as an example.

Cheers
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:44 PM   #10
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That is correct. Does not mean that the client understands what is happening at the receptacle.



For a lot of things it does not matter too much as most things are two-pronged appliances such as clock radios, table lamps, etc. However some things that people have need the ground (bond) such as a network switch, routers, some large TVs, etc. If you plug in some portable UPS as an example you will get a fault as an example.



Cheers

John
Are we still permitted to run a bond wire to a waterline or the panel to introduce a ground at these receptacles? I've seen it done in some homes that we've rewired.

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Old 08-31-2019, 08:02 AM   #11
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Yes I have seen that a few times over the years; never have actually done it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CEC 2018
26-702 Bonding of receptacles (see Appendix B)
1) Where grounding-type receptacles are used in existing installations to replace the ungrounded type, the grounding terminal shall be effectively bonded to ground and one of the following methods shall be permitted to be used: a) connection to a metal raceway or cable sheath that is bonded to ground; b) connection to the system ground by means of a separate bonding conductor; or c) bonding to an adjacent grounded metal cold-water pipe.
t:. 2) Notwithstanding Subrule 1), at existing outlets where a bonding means does not exist in the outlet box, grounding-type receptacles shall be permitted to be installed, provided that each receptacle is protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type.
3) A bonding conductor shall not be extended from any receptacle protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type in accordance with Subrule 2) to any other outlet.
I have had discussions over the years about this, none recently but I recall some issues being that you might run a #12 or #14 green all by itself and anything smaller then #6 requires mechanical protection; and then there was the issue of strain relief for the individual conductor at each box.

I think the general consensus was that if you went through the effort to fish the individual conductor, it would be best just to change out the cable since there was no practical way to meet the mechanical protection or strain relief requirements. There is no further amplification in the CEC Code Handbook either that is of value.

Any install that I have seen, was just a #14 T90 staple gunned to a floor joist and either stuck through one of the pry-outs in the box or shared the same knockout and clamp as the old cable.

To me the grounding (bonding) of the receptacle is more important than the other issues.

Cheers
John
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