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Old 07-11-2019, 07:28 PM   #41
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We have no enforcement here due to some recent provincial government changes. It’s a free for all right now. This new tool is a good thing and will help protect our trade
We have the same problem with our state certification scam. They charge a " fee" to take the exam, and to renew the cert., even though the labor code say's they can only charge $25 initially, and no renewal fee. They can't "afford" to enforce the program, so it's up to the contractors to do it for them. It's just like the increased sales tax, and added gas tax we recently got hit with. Supposedly for infrastructure renovation, but, we already paid for that, and the governmental cartel spent that money on supporting illegal aliens. (which the new taxes will also be spent on)( I'm not THAT stupid) All of the problems we have are directly caused by the government. They don't fix siht, just make it worse. Now your government is starting to sound like ours.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:49 AM   #42
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This is a revenue tool at best.
So what? It is not my money, it is the money from the guys that do not follow the established rules for being an electrician or electrical contractor in Ontario.

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Old 07-13-2019, 08:52 AM   #43
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As long as handjob men, home owners and renovators can buy all the parts at Homo Depot or and other store- we are NOT a protected trade.

HVAC is a protected trade- you need to PROVE you're in the trade in order to purchase parts for repairs or maintenance- at least in Ontario.

Remove the ability for the handjob men and homeowners to purchase the parts- 2 things will happen- the box stores will drop Canada and move elsewhere and the homeowners will scream for a violation of rights.
I have said this for years and this is the answer, stop selling to people without a ticket. They want to sell light fixtures, receptacles, etc that is fine, but don't sell panels, breakers, wire, etc.

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Old 07-13-2019, 09:18 AM   #44
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I guess the part I struggle the most with is some of the comments that suggest people are doing wrong by informing the authorities of the wrong-doing. At its core, the law is the law; would you not report if you saw a guy breaking into cars down the street, somebody dumping oil down a storm drain, throwing a bag of kittens into a pond? While I agree that initially the “harm” caused to others may not be immediate, there certainly could be.

If my next door neighbour’s house sustains serious damage or is destroyed because I burned down my house because of shoddy electrical work; why is it their fault? They are consequential victims of my crime of completing unlicensed electrical work without inspection or permit; lets be clear, permits and inspections are not going to save any more lives than “serve safe” is going to save from drunk driving, but it should be part of the overall cultural change required to keep people safe.

I have a client that it is now going to cost about $10K of work that was brought on by illegal and uninspected electrical work. Some of it is outright dangerous; so what is her recourse? She just bought the place with the claim of 200 amp service, newly rewired and “up-to-code”. I expect he list of violations will be 20 to 30 violations and while some will be insignificant (panel not labelled) others like doing a hot panel swap and putting a 200 amp panel on a 100 amp service are far more dangerous.

I agree with @The_Modifier, I think we need to limit what is sold to people without a ticket like the gas fitters / HVAC guys do. I don’t think the hotline will solve the problem, but I think it can be part of the overall solution in leveling the playing field. While I can say that I make money from fixing other people’s garbage installs, I really would like to make sure their house does not burn down with their kids in it.

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Old 07-13-2019, 02:07 PM   #45
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So what? It is not my money, it is the money from the guys that do not follow the established rules for being an electrician or electrical contractor in Ontario.

Cheers
John
So what? Setting up a revenue collection system under the guise of safety doesn't bother you? Its a pretty slippery slope. I read your long reply too, and can only say that it really seems like a justification after the fact, which lends itself to rationalization.


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Old 07-13-2019, 02:27 PM   #46
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So what? Setting up a revenue collection system under the guise of safety doesn't bother you? Its a pretty slippery slope. I read your long reply too, and can only say that it really seems like a justification after the fact, which lends itself to rationalization.


Lets work together and Make Canada Fine Again.
Ok then, what is your idea on how to penalize renovation guys from doing electrical work? Or electrical contractors who do not follow the rules?
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:34 PM   #47
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Ok then, what is your idea on how to penalize renovation guys from doing electrical work? Or electrical contractors who do not follow the rules?
Do you not get inspections now? Is this snitch line all you guys have out there?

There will always be those that ignore licencing, accept that and move on. Homeowners, here at least, are penalized for being cheepskates, or poor, or both, when they either go to sell their homes and sub par work is discovered, or they burn to death. The ones buying the illicit product are the problem.

As far as contractors that break the rules-- people that don't care about rules don't care about rules. Making new ones is pissing into the wind.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:37 PM   #48
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Also, if its not clear from previous posts, I believe restricting sales of certain products to licensed individuals would make a dent in trunk slamming activities, though I don't really support it. Money is king, and there's always someone willing to work around the rules.

Life isn't fair, get over it.
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:04 PM   #49
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So what? Setting up a revenue collection system under the guise of safety doesn't bother you? Its a pretty slippery slope.
So I might agree that it might not make anything "safer"; but it is about leveling the playing field. Let the criminals pay for the good guys that are following the rules.

I have similar view on photo radar; I say put them up everywhere and let them snap away and collect all that money. While I don't think it will make the roads safer, I think I would consider it a premium for driving faster then posted and let those that do not follow the rules pay for those that do.

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Old 07-13-2019, 08:11 PM   #50
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May a black market would develop and we could finally get some decent prices.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:42 PM   #51
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So I might agree that it might not make anything "safer"; but it is about leveling the playing field. Let the criminals pay for the good guys that are following the rules.

I have similar view on photo radar; I say put them up everywhere and let them snap away and collect all that money. While I don't think it will make the roads safer, I think I would consider it a premium for driving faster then posted and let those that do not follow the rules pay for those that do.

Cheers
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If they were taking revenue generated by the cheats and using that same revenue to subsidize legit contractors, ie reducing or eliminating permitting fees etc, that would be one thing. I can guarantee that they are not doing so. Call me cynical or call me a realist, take 50 rule breakers off the streets and 50 more will take their place. This is played out daily in any number of other criminal activities. Pretending that it makes a difference outside of the balance sheet of the collecting entity is naive IMO.

As for photo radar, all that money, in this province, goes into general police revenues. It is a BS tax that is being passed off as safety related enforcement. It is dishonest to call it anything but.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:14 PM   #52
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If there was no policing, there would be many more rule breakers, this should be common sense. Why bother following the rules at all if there is no penalty? If there was no penalty for a contractor who doesn’t follow the rules, why would any do so? If there was no penalty for Johnny the handy man to do electrical work, then why bother even going through the apprenticeship?

Of course there are always going to be rule breakers but if there was no penalty at all, then no one would follow the rules.

If there was no red light cameras or police to ticket speeders, do you honestly think nothing would change? Come on, seriously you know there would be a large difference
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:16 PM   #53
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If there was no policing, there would be many more rule breakers, this should be common sense. Why bother following the rules at all if there is no penalty? If there was no penalty for a contractor who doesn’t follow the rules, why would any do so? If there was no penalty for Johnny the handy man to do electrical work, then why bother even going through the apprenticeship?

Of course there are always going to be rule breakers but if there was no penalty at all, then no one would follow the rules.
Who is it that is suggesting no policing, penalties or rules?
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:18 PM   #54
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Prohibition never works. It's been tried many times before and it always fails. It does do one thing very well and that's creating a black market. It also makes criminals out of people who would never be criminals otherwise.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:22 PM   #55
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If there was no policing, there would be many more rule breakers, this should be common sense. Why bother following the rules at all if there is no penalty? If there was no penalty for a contractor who doesn’t follow the rules, why would any do so? If there was no penalty for Johnny the handy man to do electrical work, then why bother even going through the apprenticeship?

Of course there are always going to be rule breakers but if there was no penalty at all, then no one would follow the rules.

If there was no red light cameras or police to ticket speeders, do you honestly think nothing would change? Come on, seriously you know there would be a large difference
You seem to make giant leaps towards catastrophe based on things no one has said. re the bold section of your post...red light cameras and photo radar are a cash cow. No one is suggesting that other forms of enforcement need to go out the window. If my car or truck is photographed speeding, or violating a red light, I get a letter 2 weeks later, as the registered owner, regardless of who was driving. I had an apprentice who got a photo radar ticket 5 days in a row, on a deserted stretch of rural road. Got a ticket in the mail five days in a row. They didn't stop him from speeding, just milked his bank account and moved on. Tell me how safety is being improved here? Photo ticketing and in person stops are not the same thing.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:23 PM   #56
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If there was no policing, there would be many more rule breakers, this should be common sense. Why bother following the rules at all if there is no penalty? If there was no penalty for a contractor who doesn’️t follow the rules, why would any do so? If there was no penalty for Johnny the handy man to do electrical work, then why bother even going through the apprenticeship?

Of course there are always going to be rule breakers but if there was no penalty at all, then no one would follow the rules.
Who is it that is suggesting no policing, penalties or rules?
I don’t think you understand how things work here.

The only way right now to catch unlicensed workers or contractors who are not following the rules is this new anonymous line. Our inspectors do not just go around looking for rule breakers and the old enforcement we had had been dismantled by our provincial government. Our inspectors only inspect the jobs that have permits taken out on them.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:24 PM   #57
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I don’t think you understand how things work here.

The only way right now to catch unlicensed workers or contractors who are not following the rules is this new anonymous line. Our inspectors do not just go around looking for rule breakers and the old enforcement we had had been dismantled by our provincial government. Our inspectors only inspect the jobs that have permits taken out on them.
That's how it works here too, not much to wrap my head around. Thanks though.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:27 PM   #58
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If there was no policing, there would be many more rule breakers, this should be common sense. Why bother following the rules at all if there is no penalty? If there was no penalty for a contractor who doesn’️t follow the rules, why would any do so? If there was no penalty for Johnny the handy man to do electrical work, then why bother even going through the apprenticeship?

Of course there are always going to be rule breakers but if there was no penalty at all, then no one would follow the rules.

If there was no red light cameras or police to ticket speeders, do you honestly think nothing would change? Come on, seriously you know there would be a large difference
You seem to make giant leaps towards catastrophe based on things no one has said. re the bold section of your post...red light cameras and photo radar are a cash cow. No one is suggesting that other forms of enforcement need to go out the window. If my car or truck is photographed speeding, or violating a red light, I get a letter 2 weeks later, as the registered owner, regardless of who was driving. I had an apprentice who got a photo radar ticket 5 days in a row, on a deserted stretch of rural road. Got a ticket in the mail five days in a row. They didn't stop him from speeding, just milked his bank account and moved on. Tell me how safety is being improved here? Photo ticketing and in person stops are not the same thing.
No it didn’t stop him but it does stop many others. And eventually his license would be suspended so yeah, it will stop even an idiot like your apprentice. So if there was no photo ticket do you not realize more people would go through the red light?
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:29 PM   #59
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I don’️t think you understand how things work here.

The only way right now to catch unlicensed workers or contractors who are not following the rules is this new anonymous line. Our inspectors do not just go around looking for rule breakers and the old enforcement we had had been dismantled by our provincial government. Our inspectors only inspect the jobs that have permits taken out on them.
That's how it works here too, not much to wrap my head around. Thanks though.
So tell me then, do you think nothing should be done then? Please tell me what you think should be done to slow these hacks from doing electrical work.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:32 PM   #60
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No it didn’t stop him but it does stop many others. And eventually his license would be suspended so yeah, it will stop even an idiot like your apprentice. So if there was no photo ticket do you not realize more people would go through the red light?
-Photo radar does not come with demerits, so no, he would not loose his licence (cash cows have no teeth).

-How would it stop others, they don't know they were speeding, or caught, until 2 weeks later.

-People here, and I live in a city voted worst drivers nationally many years running, try not to run red lights...I assume as a self preservation tactic. I don't imagine that rates of accidents in intersections would change much with or without cameras. Its not like the few with cameras are sparkling clean while the vast majority in the city are swimming in broken glass and blood.
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