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Old 07-13-2019, 08:35 PM   #61
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So tell me then, do you think nothing should be done then? Please tell me what you think should be done to slow these hacks from doing electrical work.
Do as we do, licence professionals. Require permits and inspect jobs. Educate those that will listen.

If you want to slow the hacks, that is another story. Probably do some research, maybe start with Sysyphus.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:41 PM   #62
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So tell me then, do you think nothing should be done then? Please tell me what you think should be done to slow these hacks from doing electrical work.
Do as we do, licence professionals. Require permits and inspect jobs. Educate those that will listen.

If you want to slow the hacks, that is another story. Probably do some research, maybe start with Sysyphus.
It’s not another story at all, it is what this thread is about.

ESA has stopped ,fined and shut down many hacks who do electrical work that shouldn’t be. Some have even caused injuries and deaths. This anonymous line is a good thing and will help.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:46 PM   #63
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You should always be able to know who is accusing you. Being anounomous could just be someone who doesn't have a license ratting you out for more work for himself.

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Old 07-13-2019, 08:47 PM   #64
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It’s not another story at all, it is what this thread is about.

ESA has stopped ,fined and shut down many hacks who do electrical work that shouldn’t be. Some have even caused injuries and deaths. This anonymous line is a good thing and will help.
"another story all together" is an idiom, sorry if that was confusing, I thought that by now my position is clear.

re the bold, I'd be interested to read all about this, whats your source? I'd love to be wrong.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:50 PM   #65
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So tell me then, do you think nothing should be done then? Please tell me what you think should be done to slow these hacks from doing electrical work.
Here's what I would do about it: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I live in a state with licensing, permitting, inspections, apprenticeship, apprentice to journeyman ratios, required continuing education for license holders and fines for unlicensed activity. Guess what all that does to stop hack work from taking place? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact, much of the hack work I see is done by people with trade licenses.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:57 PM   #66
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It’️s not another story at all, it is what this thread is about.

ESA has stopped ,fined and shut down many hacks who do electrical work that shouldn’️t be. Some have even caused injuries and deaths. This anonymous line is a good thing and will help.
"another story all together" is an idiom, sorry if that was confusing, I thought that by now my position is clear.

re the bold, I'd be interested to read all about this, whats your source? I'd love to be wrong.

Go to the ESA website, they publish all their convictions.

This one caused a death

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...574135961.html


“ The severity of the fines and jail time sends a clear message that electrical work in Ontario must only be done with an electrical contractor's licence and in compliance with the Ontario Electrical Safety Code.”
https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...636946473.html
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:58 PM   #67
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So tell me then, do you think nothing should be done then? Please tell me what you think should be done to slow these hacks from doing electrical work.
Here's what I would do about it: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I live in a state with licensing, permitting, inspections, apprenticeship, apprentice to journeyman ratios, required continuing education for license holders and fines for unlicensed activity. Guess what all that does to stop hack work from taking place? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact, much of the hack work I see is done by people with trade licenses.
You need a snitch line. Lol
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:01 PM   #68
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You need a snitch line. Lol
We have one. In fact, someone tried to use it on me before. Unfortunately for the state inspector who just happened to show up at my job looking to fine me, I had all my ducks in a row (permit aka government permission slip) and he went away empty. It takes a really small minded person to rat someone out for doing electrical work.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:04 PM   #69
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Go to the ESA website, they publish all their convictions.

This one caused a death

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...574135961.html


“ The severity of the fines and jail time sends a clear message that electrical work in Ontario must only be done with an electrical contractor's licence and in compliance with the Ontario Electrical Safety Code.”
https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...636946473.html
I don't see where either of those convictions were attributed to the snitch line. Pretty sure the fatality wasn't related. I think you're exaggerating the efficacy of a snitch line.

Gonna have to just agree to disagree.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:05 PM   #70
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You need a snitch line. Lol
We have one. In fact, someone tried to use it on me before. Unfortunately for the state inspector who just happened to show up at my job looking to fine me, I had all my ducks in a row (permit aka government permission slip) and he went away empty. It takes a really small minded person to rat someone out for doing electrical work.
What about the guy who did shoddy work and killed someone? Should he continue to do electrical work ?
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:08 PM   #71
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Go to the ESA website, they publish all their convictions.

This one caused a death

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...574135961.html


“ The severity of the fines and jail time sends a clear message that electrical work in Ontario must only be done with an electrical contractor's licence and in compliance with the Ontario Electrical Safety Code.â€Â
https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...636946473.html
I don't see where either of those convictions were attributed to the snitch line. Pretty sure the fatality wasn't related. I think you're exaggerating the efficacy of a snitch line.

Gonna have to just agree to disagree.
Of course the line didn’t attribute to those convictions, The line is brand new. It will help in catching more hacks which will hopefully stop other incidents.

We will have to wait and see if it is an efficient system as again, it is brand new.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:16 PM   #72
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What about the guy who did shoddy work and killed someone? Should he continue to do electrical work ?
Of course not. But the laws only punish those who play by the rules. Hacks don't get permits, they don't play by the rules and they certainly evade the attention of the authorities the vast majority of the time.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:16 PM   #73
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...red light cameras and photo radar are a cash cow. No one is suggesting that other forms of enforcement need to go out the window. If my car or truck is photographed speeding, or violating a red light, I get a letter 2 weeks later, as the registered owner, regardless of who was driving. I had an apprentice who got a photo radar ticket 5 days in a row, on a deserted stretch of rural road. Got a ticket in the mail five days in a row. They didn't stop him from speeding, just milked his bank account and moved on. Tell me how safety is being improved here? Photo ticketing and in person stops are not the same thing.
So this falls in line with my thinking; so what if it is a cash cow... I agree that it should not be promoted as a "safety improvement" or anything else but... I say if you want to pay a premium and speed, run a red light, etc, perfect. This would free up a lot of police officers and get them out to do real police work.

Same idea with electrical and trade enforcement. Make the fines / penalties large enough that it levels the playing field; if the people don't want a CofQ or to become an LEC, then pay the fine /penalty. I could care less where the money goes and I also agree that it should be advertised simply as that; a penalty for not following the rules and not a safety enhancement.

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Old 07-13-2019, 09:21 PM   #74
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So this falls in line with my thinking; so what if it is a cash cow... I agree that it should not be promoted as a "safety improvement" or anything else but... I say if you want to pay a premium and speed, run a red light, etc, perfect. This would free up a lot of police officers and get them out to do real police work.

Same idea with electrical and trade enforcement. Make the fines / penalties large enough that it levels the playing field; if the people don't want a CofQ or to become an LEC, then pay the fine /penalty. I could care less where the money goes and I also agree that it should be advertised simply as that; a penalty for not following the rules and not a safety enhancement.

Cheers
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I get what you're saying, and don't entirely disagree. The snitch line, specifically its anonymous nature is what I disagree with.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:23 PM   #75
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What about the guy who did shoddy work and killed someone? Should he continue to do electrical work ?
Of course not. But the laws only punish those who play by the rules. Hacks don't get permits, they don't play by the rules and they certainly evade the attention of the authorities the vast majority of the time.
No the laws would punish anyone not playing by the rules. This new “snitch line” is for unlicensed hacks and licensed contractors.

Of course there will always be those who evade the authorities but the idea here is hopefully some will have second thoughts due to others who are getting charged.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:25 PM   #76
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The tip line is not the "silver bullet"; just like the crime stoppers tip line is not the silver bullet either; but it can be an effective part of an overall strategy to reduce offenders.

As I said in my earlier post, I don't see why there is pushback on enforcement; crime is crime is crime. I agree that there are certainly different levels of crime; thus different sentencing rules. Why would you report a drunk driver and not report dangerous electrical work. What is the difference between an unlicensed driver and unlicensed guy doing electrical work?

Like I said, this should not be touted as a safety measure (although there may be some residual effects of safety); call it a straight up deterrent or an attempt to level the playing field for the other LECs.

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Old 07-14-2019, 09:42 PM   #77
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The gov't getting citizens to snitch on each other.....where have we seen this before?

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