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Old 08-13-2018, 10:25 PM   #1
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Default Splice in Panel

So rule 6-212 pretty much states panel boards can't be used as a junction or act as a raceway.
I have an existing outdoor circuit that I want to add to. Does this rule prevent me from adding a wire to the panel and creating a splice that will let me land both wires on one breaker using one wire?
I think it should be compliant. Square D breakers accept two wires but this is a Siemens panel. I also have to splice the neutral because I'm installing a dual function breaker.
Rule 12-3032(2)(a)(i)&(ii) seems to allow what I plan to do.
Any advice would be great.
Thanks


6-212 (1)
Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes,
troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.

From the hand book:
Rule 6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
Heat can affect the proper sensing of the current passing through the overcurrent device. An externally
operated fused switch or a circuit breaker enclosure is normally designed for one conductor per phase terminal
and must not be used for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other enclosures/apparatus. Subrule (1)
restricts the use of space in a fused switch or circuit breaker enclosure so that only the conductors for that switch
or circuit breaker are allowed to enter the enclosure.

12-3032 (1)
Enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, and externally operated switches shall not be used as
junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through to other apparatus.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1),
(a) the enclosures identified shall be permitted to be used as junction boxes
(i) for all installations where a single feeder supplying another enclosure is tapped from it and the
connectors used each provide an independent clamping means for each conductor and each
clamping means is independently accessible for tightening or inspection; or
(ii) where wiring is being added to an enclosure forming part of an existing installation and the
conductors, splices, and taps do not fill the wiring space at any cross-section to more than 75%
of the cross-sectional area of the space; and
(b) the enclosure identified shall be permitted to be used as a raceway where the conductors are being
added to enclosures forming part of an existing installation and all conductors present do not fill the
wiring space at any cross-section to more than 40% of the cross-sectional area of the space.


From the handbook:
Rule 12-3032 Wiring space in enclosures
Subrule (1) requires that enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, or externally operated switches not be
used as junction boxes, wiring troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through to other apparatus. Wiring
space within these devices is usually only large enough to contain the supply and load conductors. Situations
that can necessitate a feed-through to other apparatus can usually be avoided by the use of wireways or
auxiliary gutters.
When an enclosure is supplied with terminal connections that provide individual clamping means for each
conductor, Subrule (2) allows a single feeder supplying another enclosure to be tapped from it. For maintenance
and inspection purposes, each clamping means must be accessible. Subrule (2) also requires that adequate
space be provided in the enclosure to route the conductors so as to prevent undue strain on the terminations
and maintain the necessary clearances.
When wiring is required to be added to an existing installation, Subrule (2) allows the existing enclosures to
be used as junction boxes or as raceways, provided that the conductors, splices, and taps do not fill the
cross-sectional area of the space to more than 75% and that conductors run through the enclosure do not fill
the wiring space at any cross-section to more than 40% of the cross-sectional area of the space. This exception
recognizes the need for the installation of management systems and other similar upgrades that tap into the
existing wiring system for monitoring purposes, etc. Apart from the single feeder tap in Subrule 2(a)(i), this
exception applies to existing installations only and is not an acceptable practice for new installations in which
the design can incorporate the required enclosures for the wiring systems.

Last edited by NDC; 08-13-2018 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:00 PM   #2
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This comes up all the time. The key words are “feeding through or tapping off”.

The intent of Those codes are to keep people from using a panel as a j box for wires not associated with it. Also to make sure you don’t exceed the space with joints that are allowed.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:35 PM   #3
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Not being able to put a splice in a panel would make a panel change downright difficult. I've done probably hundreds of panel swaps where every circuit was spliced.
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:17 AM   #4
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I was under the impression the CEC and NEC were similar , but it's been a long time since i've had a CEC

Look for the equivelent of 312.8 A&B, or 409.104 (which mentions splices)
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Old 08-14-2018, 06:45 AM   #5
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Yes I've used wire nuts in panels many times to extend circuits that are short. I have just never had to feed 2 different nmd cables from one breaker within a panel.
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:35 AM   #6
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The loose rule of thumb here is that you can do it as long as you don't go crazy. At one time I think it was prohibited (could have been a provincial thing).

I have pigtailed two cables in a panel before with no problem but, to be honest, my inspectors rarely dig that deep. Aren't you allowed to terminate two conductors on some breakers like QO's (not sure)?

My personal rule of thumb is to use a Wago and hide it. If I have a few splices I use an external JB.

Last edited by 99cents; 08-14-2018 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 07:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
The loose rule of thumb here is that you can do it as long as you don't go crazy. At one time I think it was prohibited (could have been a provincial thing).

I have pigtailed two cables in a panel before with no problem but, to be honest, my inspectors rarely dig that deep. Aren't you allowed to terminate two conductors on some breakers like QO's (not sure)?

My personal rule of thumb is to use a Wago and hide it. If I have a few splices I use an external JB.
As long as the breaker is designed/listed for that.
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Old 08-14-2018, 02:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
This comes up all the time. The key words are “feeding through or tapping off”.

The intent of Those codes are to keep people from using a panel as a j box for wires not associated with it. Also to make sure you don’t exceed the space with joints that are allowed.
This does come up a lot, because the Rule needs to be clarified. I do understand Ed's interpretation, but it could very easily be clarified, but never has been. The inspector doesn't have the time to make sure, unless it's obvious to them.

In the old days, my old days (the 80s), if an inspector seen a junction, he mentioned it, not called it, as he didn't really give a chit unless you had a real mess of them, then he got pissy.

Now with all the new technology, like energy management systems and such, this Rule needs a re-look. But, I have also mentioned this often as well.

These days, inspectors rarely take off the cover. Legality issues again.

Borgi
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:58 PM   #9
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If you've ever seen really old residential panels, the first using circuit breakers, they were so short of wire space it was a crime. They were dimensioned so that they barely took more space than the traditional fuse box... which was a mistake.

Modern panels always have enough space so that the occasional splice off of a breaker is no insult.

That's why the rule hangs on. It's for the inspector's discretion, to give him a reason to shoot down a travesty. I've never seen an inspector raise a peep over the matter.
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
This comes up all the time. The key words are “feeding through or tapping off”.

The intent of Those codes are to keep people from using a panel as a j box for wires not associated with it. Also to make sure you don’t exceed the space with joints that are allowed.
This does come up a lot, because the Rule needs to be clarified. [/IMG]

Borgi
It comes up a lot because it is an old wives tale. There never was a code against using a splice in a panel in the CEC.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDC View Post
So rule 6-212 pretty much states panel boards can't be used as a junction or act as a raceway.
I have an existing outdoor circuit that I want to add to. Does this rule prevent me from adding a wire to the panel and creating a splice that will let me land both wires on one breaker using one wire?
I think it should be compliant. Square D breakers accept two wires but this is a Siemens panel. I also have to splice the neutral because I'm installing a dual function breaker.
Rule 12-3032(2)(a)(i)&(ii) seems to allow what I plan to do.
Any advice would be great.
Thanks


6-212 (1)
Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes,
troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.

From the hand book:
Rule 6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
Heat can affect the proper sensing of the current passing through the overcurrent device. An externally
operated fused switch or a circuit breaker enclosure is normally designed for one conductor per phase terminal
and must not be used for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other enclosures/apparatus. Subrule (1)
restricts the use of space in a fused switch or circuit breaker enclosure so that only the conductors for that switch
or circuit breaker are allowed to enter the enclosure.

12-3032 (1)
Enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, and externally operated switches shall not be used as
junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through to other apparatus.
(2) Notwithstanding Subrule (1),
(a) the enclosures identified shall be permitted to be used as junction boxes
(i) for all installations where a single feeder supplying another enclosure is tapped from it and the
connectors used each provide an independent clamping means for each conductor and each
clamping means is independently accessible for tightening or inspection; or
(ii) where wiring is being added to an enclosure forming part of an existing installation and the
conductors, splices, and taps do not fill the wiring space at any cross-section to more than 75%
of the cross-sectional area of the space; and
(b) the enclosure identified shall be permitted to be used as a raceway where the conductors are being
added to enclosures forming part of an existing installation and all conductors present do not fill the
wiring space at any cross-section to more than 40% of the cross-sectional area of the space.


From the handbook:
Rule 12-3032 Wiring space in enclosures
Subrule (1) requires that enclosures for overcurrent devices, controllers, or externally operated switches not be
used as junction boxes, wiring troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through to other apparatus. Wiring
space within these devices is usually only large enough to contain the supply and load conductors. Situations
that can necessitate a feed-through to other apparatus can usually be avoided by the use of wireways or
auxiliary gutters.
When an enclosure is supplied with terminal connections that provide individual clamping means for each
conductor, Subrule (2) allows a single feeder supplying another enclosure to be tapped from it. For maintenance
and inspection purposes, each clamping means must be accessible. Subrule (2) also requires that adequate
space be provided in the enclosure to route the conductors so as to prevent undue strain on the terminations
and maintain the necessary clearances.
When wiring is required to be added to an existing installation, Subrule (2) allows the existing enclosures to
be used as junction boxes or as raceways, provided that the conductors, splices, and taps do not fill the
cross-sectional area of the space to more than 75% and that conductors run through the enclosure do not fill
the wiring space at any cross-section to more than 40% of the cross-sectional area of the space. This exception
recognizes the need for the installation of management systems and other similar upgrades that tap into the
existing wiring system for monitoring purposes, etc. Apart from the single feeder tap in Subrule 2(a)(i), this
exception applies to existing installations only and is not an acceptable practice for new installations in which
the design can incorporate the required enclosures for the wiring systems.

Not acceptable to have 2 circuit runs (2wires)on one breaker and/or use the cct panel as a junction box! I've replaced panels because of many reasons. If there's no room for that extra circuit run I suggest you either install a sub panel or swap panel to a bigger one.... don't go the homeowners route to save money do it right.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpm1132 View Post
Not acceptable to have 2 circuit runs (2wires)on one breaker and/or use the cct panel as a junction box! I've replaced panels because of many reasons. If there's no room for that extra circuit run I suggest you either install a sub panel or swap panel to a bigger one.... don't go the homeowners route to save money do it right.
Do you have a code reference? The ones you quoted say otherwise
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:15 AM   #13
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Most small generator panels are designed to be spliced in the main panel.
The rules do get a little fluffy as the generator panel is feed from the main panel so the splices are related to the panel until you switch to the generator then technically the splices are no long related to the panel.

In a new install this would probably be against code but on a existing install it seems to be covered unless you already have maxed the fill rate for the panel.

Makes sense on a new install to run the cables to the transfer rather than splicing them in the main panel. Same as it makes sense to splice them in the main on a existing panel when adding a transfer panel.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
Do you have a code reference? The ones you quoted say otherwise
As you well know eddy current, it depends on the inspector and the day.

A pissy inspector can always use Rule 2-112, and make life miserable for you. In Alberta they don't have the time, probably shake their head and move on.

In life, you are often tempted to do things you don't feel is acceptable, and you are always offered many excuses; "technically allowed by the code", or "the letter of the law allows it", or "it's a shady area but acceptable".

I think a junction in a panel looks like chit and is difficult to troubleshoot. If you want your work to be "quality" and your trade treated with respect, I think you have to start somewhere. I start with this Rule!

But, as I type this I realize it's kinda silly for me to be giving life lessons, and extremely difficult to teach your children good moral values and ethics when the Donald Trumps of our world are successful doing exactly the opposite.

Home inspectors are allowed to rape our trade, and every other building trade out there. So, have at it, put an ugly junction in the panel.

No apologies for the rant!

Borgi
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
As you well know eddy current, it depends on the inspector and the day.

A pissy inspector can always use Rule 2-112, and make life miserable for you. In Alberta they don't have the time, probably shake their head and move on.

In life, you are often tempted to do things you don't feel is acceptable, and you are always offered many excuses; "technically allowed by the code", or "the letter of the law allows it", or "it's a shady area but acceptable".

I think a junction in a panel looks like chit and is difficult to troubleshoot. If you want your work to be "quality" and your trade treated with respect, I think you have to start somewhere. I start with this Rule!

But, as I type this I realize it's kinda silly for me to be giving life lessons, and extremely difficult to teach your children good moral values and ethics when the Donald Trumps of our world are successful doing exactly the opposite.

Home inspectors are allowed to rape our trade, and every other building trade out there. So, have at it, put an ugly junction in the panel.

No apologies for the rant!

Borgi
WTF??????????


You cannot read forum rules properly , yet you try to lecture others about rules?
What a jackass.
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Old 08-19-2018, 02:14 PM   #16
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@Borgi. How are home inspectors "raping" our trade? I do a buttload of work for realtors who rely on home inspectors.
If you are talking about the inspection process maybe but I hate doing home inspections and it just seems better for me to have it come from an independent source.

But since I see you are a Donald hater there really is no changing your mind because you like it the way it has always been done.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:34 PM   #17
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@Borgi, I know your trolling just like the last time this question came around but the code in question is very clear and I would happily fight an inspector on it.
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
As you well know eddy current, it depends on the inspector and the day.
No it doesn't depend on the day. Parts of code only change every 3 years now. Inspector is bound by that, if he thinks you're a moron thou, he'll call you out on all kinds of stuff. Then, when he goes camping for the weekend, he tells all his buddies how he totally f'ed up an electrician last week and they all have a good laugh at ya

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
A pissy inspector can always use Rule 2-112, and make life miserable for you. In Alberta they don't have the time, probably shake their head and move on.
Unless you do improper splices, how could he call you on workmanship ?
I guess you get called on that rule a lot ?? ... on the few times you've actually done a job ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
In life, you are often tempted to do things you don't feel is acceptable, and you are always offered many excuses; "technically allowed by the code", or "the letter of the law allows it", or "it's a shady area but acceptable".
I'm tempted to go to Alberta to knock some sense into you.... maybe that's not acceptable anymore

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
I think a junction in a panel looks like chit and is difficult to troubleshoot. If you want your work to be "quality" and your trade treated with respect, I think you have to start somewhere. I start with this Rule!
A junction in a junction box ... wow, just wow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
But, as I type this I realize it's kinda silly for me to be giving life lessons, and extremely difficult to teach your children good moral values and ethics when the Donald Trumps of our world are successful doing exactly the opposite.
Yeah, you should move outta mommys house, and start working before you give life lessons ... Good one Borgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
Home inspectors are allowed to rape our trade, and every other building trade out there. So, have at it, put an ugly junction in the panel.
Do Home inspectors rape you ??? Can I get their names ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
No apologies for the rant!
Borgi
No apologies for calling you out as a complete fawking moron.


Jeezzus, I logged in just to reply to this
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:52 AM   #19
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Default Wait a minute...

...if you can't splice in a panel how do you make the connection of a conductor to the breaker?






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Old 08-23-2018, 11:39 PM   #20
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I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet...ground-pin-up or ground-pin-down?
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