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Subpanel grounding/bonding

CEC 
20K views 43 replies 14 participants last post by  Bcec 
#1 ·
Good afternoon everyone,


Working on a side job here in Alberta. I had a question with regards to the recent code changes in 2018. Specifically 10-210.



"The grounded conductor shall be connected to a grounding conductor at one point only at the consumers service."


In 2015, you used to be able to ground the neutral at every building that was not connected directly to building where the service enters.



I'm working on a sub-panel upgrade in a detached garage. The previous panel that I upgraded was an old plug fuse type. They had a #12 bonding conductor that I wasn't able to pull out of the old underground conduit. I tried fishing and was not able to get it back to the house.


I ended up just digging in a new ground plate at the garage and attaching a #6 to my bonding bus in my new sub panel. This bond to the ground plate and the neutral are isolated in the sub panel. I did this according to the new rule, 10-210. Otherwise I would have ran a jumper and grounded my neutral at the sub panel again.



Is this ok? I want to make sure I get this right.



To me this is the same as running a bond back to the main panel. I've hit the same point. What do you guys think? Hopefully the link to the dropbox picture works. Let me know


(EDIT) Whoops, I only have 16 posts, so apparently I'm not allowed to post links or pictures. You'll just have to take my word for it haha
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Are you a registered electrical contractor , In BC they are coming down on guys doing side work Being a journeyman here doesn't allow you to hang out a shingle and charge others for contracting as they can not get permits.


The term side work automatically puts up warning signals



A person can face a Judge here and heavily fined
 
#6 · (Edited)
The old rule allowed you to install a ground plate at each building but you had to bond the neutral to it as well at each building.

That rule is no longer there in the 2018.

With the new code, The sub panel you installed must be bonded back at the main, you can’t do it the way you have done. The way you did it, there is no way for any fault current on the ground from the sub panel to make it back to the source except through the earth.
 
#16 ·
I never noticed this change, as the 2018 has yet to be adopted here in BC. And the more interesting topic on this section was the handling of the grounding/bonding within the meter base (insulated neutral bus).

I guess this means triplex will give way to quadplex in a rural situation, ie: main service building feeding other out-buildings on the property supplied by the same service.
 
#8 ·
Yep I believe in Ontario you do need a masters licence to do electrical work for others and accept payment.A fellow was fined 50,000.00 dollars and a short jail term for doing small jobs with out permits.The only way to receive permits is if you have a master designation.If you are doing sidejobs with out permits you are liable to fines.Same as in B.C. except instead of a masters licence you need a contractors licence and an F.S.R. number.
 
#18 ·
I’ve known of a few electrical contractors in Alberta that are not master electricians and one of them wasn’t even journeyman. They “sub” off someone with theirs and get them to pull permits. Not saying it’s right but unfortunately it’s happening. Their work isn’t good either. I help doing another job from time to time and have came across outlet boxes not bonded, no vapour boot on attic pots (which is against local building code but they get away some how, even if IC rated), then just quality of work such as lights not in a line, different height gang boxes if on same stud (receptacle & tv outlet). I’d love to see the lack of needing a masters ticket corrected here.
 
#19 ·
You must pull a bond back to the main panel. What you have done is dangerous. With no path back to the source the overcurrent devices will not operate in the event of a fault.

As far as the meter base goes regarding the new code, the neutral conductor will be permitted to be bonded at the meter base a second time until the standard for manufacturing meter bases is updated and isolated neutral meter bases are available.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Just so I am clear on what you are saying…

For the new code (2018) are we grounding in the meter socket or bonding in the meter socket? If you are saying that there are isolation kits for meter sockets, then we are bonding the meter socket inside with the disconnect. Yet when we talk about multi-gang meter sockets we are grounding the meter socket and bonding the panels (disconnects) because the neutral in the multi-gang meter socket is not isolated.

I thought we were going to ground the meter socket (eliminating the isolation block) and bond the disconnects now in 2018. The issue being that the 10/32 screw in the meter socket is not rated for fault current so until further notice we would continue to ground the panel / disconnect as per current practice in single gang meter sockets. Further notice = until the manufactures find a way to solidly connect the neutral lug to the meter socket.

Edit - maybe I am confusing what you are saying to what is happing in this thread.

Cheers
John
 
#26 ·
I would assume that if you using steel, you either need to isolate the neutral in the meter socket or in the panel since they are connected via the steel. Right now we don't isolate the neutral in the meter socket, the same as a PVC.

In the case of this thread, what do you think the expectation will be for overhead? Pulling a bond wire up the stack on both ends?

I have the CEC handbook, but have not studied it at all.

Cheers
John
 
#27 · (Edited)
I would assume that if you using steel, you either need to isolate the neutral in the meter socket or in the panel since they are connected via the steel. Right now we don't isolate the neutral in the meter socket, the same as a PVC.

In the case of this thread, what do you think the expectation will be for overhead? Pulling a bond wire up the stack on both ends?

I have the CEC handbook, but have not studied it at all.

Cheers
John
Yes. It is The same as if you were feeding a building that housed livestock. You would run a bond from the main out to the sub panel.


As for the service bonding changes,
Here are some pics from 2018 CEC 10-210 in app. B for how to bond the service and meter.
 

Attachments

#29 ·
@eddy current interesting that those pics are not in the Part 1 or the handbook.

So Ok then, I am understanding about the service requirements. I was getting confused because of the thread it was in I guess. I get that you would need to bring a separate bonding wire up the stack... I was trying to figure out why all this meter socket stuff and isolated blocks in the meter socket, etc for a sub panel.

Looking forward to the new code update seminars...

Cheers
John
 
#41 ·
I know all that (plus you'll need a business licence from your city/regional district; a provincal and federal tax account, etc.); but it looked like eddy_current was asking how much time a person needs to be journeyman berfore they they can go into business.

And yes a FSR-C technically is the lowest tier but the exam and experience requirements are the same for a B so why would you knee cap yourself with a C ticket? IE: I don't know anyone with a C ticket.
 
#43 ·
Okay.I did'nt mean to jump all over you there but I have had many guys tell me that they are writing their F.S.R. so they can take out their own permits.I do though wonder that why if the B and C tickets were the same exam why even have a C ticket classification.I always thought the fact that the C exam was easy,it contributed to making the new house wiring so competitive and unprofitable.It seems back aways that a lot of guys couldnt pass the B ticket with out a lot of studying.When you are limited to 200amps single phase its very limited and kneecapped for sure.
 
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