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-   -   Subpanel grounding/bonding (https://www.electriciantalk.com/f31/subpanel-grounding-bonding-269822/)

DPWK 02-03-2019 03:37 PM

Subpanel grounding/bonding
 
Good afternoon everyone,


Working on a side job here in Alberta. I had a question with regards to the recent code changes in 2018. Specifically 10-210.



"The grounded conductor shall be connected to a grounding conductor at one point only at the consumers service."


In 2015, you used to be able to ground the neutral at every building that was not connected directly to building where the service enters.



I'm working on a sub-panel upgrade in a detached garage. The previous panel that I upgraded was an old plug fuse type. They had a #12 bonding conductor that I wasn't able to pull out of the old underground conduit. I tried fishing and was not able to get it back to the house.


I ended up just digging in a new ground plate at the garage and attaching a #6 to my bonding bus in my new sub panel. This bond to the ground plate and the neutral are isolated in the sub panel. I did this according to the new rule, 10-210. Otherwise I would have ran a jumper and grounded my neutral at the sub panel again.



Is this ok? I want to make sure I get this right.



To me this is the same as running a bond back to the main panel. I've hit the same point. What do you guys think? Hopefully the link to the dropbox picture works. Let me know


(EDIT) Whoops, I only have 16 posts, so apparently I'm not allowed to post links or pictures. You'll just have to take my word for it haha

electricguy 02-03-2019 04:56 PM

It is illegal for 3rd year apprentices to do side work do you not care about liability did you lie to get the work or just not inform the customer about this

DPWK 02-03-2019 04:58 PM

Lol. I'm a journeyman now. Got it in July 2018. I haven't updated my profile in a while.

electricguy 02-03-2019 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPWK (Post 5156592)
Lol. I'm a journeyman now. Got it in July 2018. I haven't updated my profile in a while.


Are you a registered electrical contractor , In BC they are coming down on guys doing side work Being a journeyman here doesn't allow you to hang out a shingle and charge others for contracting as they can not get permits.


The term side work automatically puts up warning signals



A person can face a Judge here and heavily fined

DPWK 02-03-2019 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electricguy (Post 5156594)
Are you a registered electrical contractor , In BC they are coming down on guys doing side work Being a journeyman here doesn't allow you to hang out a shingle and charge others for contracting as they can not get permits.


The term side work automatically puts up warning signals



A person can face a Judge here and heavily fined




I call it side work because I still work for a regular employer but I have a legitimate business of my own that I work on projects that come up from friends and family. I don't actively advertise because I don't have enough time to work on multiple projects and still keep my day job. I have a business license and insurance.



Do you have an answer for my question? I feel like I'm getting grilled here lol. :biggrin:

eddy current 02-03-2019 06:32 PM

123 Attachment(s)
The old rule allowed you to install a ground plate at each building but you had to bond the neutral to it as well at each building.

That rule is no longer there in the 2018.

With the new code, The sub panel you installed must be bonded back at the main, you can’t do it the way you have done. The way you did it, there is no way for any fault current on the ground from the sub panel to make it back to the source except through the earth.

eddy current 02-03-2019 06:59 PM

Also, is there not a restriction in your province for new journeymen to start their own company?

Here it is minimum licenced for three years and you must pass the masters exam.

Bcec 02-04-2019 04:26 PM

Yep I believe in Ontario you do need a masters licence to do electrical work for others and accept payment.A fellow was fined 50,000.00 dollars and a short jail term for doing small jobs with out permits.The only way to receive permits is if you have a master designation.If you are doing sidejobs with out permits you are liable to fines.Same as in B.C. except instead of a masters licence you need a contractors licence and an F.S.R. number.

Bleddyn 02-04-2019 05:13 PM

Actually Bcec, in Ontario you also have to have an electrical contractors license; for which having a masters is one of the requirements. But a masters license on its own isn’t sufficient.

CoolWill 02-04-2019 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcec (Post 5156890)
Yep I believe in Ontario you do need a masters licence to do electrical work for others and accept payment.A fellow was fined 50,000.00 dollars and a short jail term for doing small jobs with out permits.The only way to receive permits is if you have a master designation.If you are doing sidejobs with out permits you are liable to fines.Same as in B.C. except instead of a masters licence you need a contractors licence and an F.S.R. number.

Putting people in jail for working... Considering the real evils of the world that could be dealt with, jailing someone for unlicensed work is another evil.

eddy current 02-04-2019 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolWill (Post 5157038)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcec (Post 5156890)
Yep I believe in Ontario you do need a masters licence to do electrical work for others and accept payment.A fellow was fined 50,000.00 dollars and a short jail term for doing small jobs with out permits.The only way to receive permits is if you have a master designation.If you are doing sidejobs with out permits you are liable to fines.Same as in B.C. except instead of a masters licence you need a contractors licence and an F.S.R. number.

Putting people in jail for working... Considering the real evils of the world that could be dealt with, jailing someone for unlicensed work is another evil.

So what do you think should be done? Let anyone do electrical work? Throw our licences in the trash?

CoolWill 02-04-2019 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy current (Post 5157050)
So what do you think should be done? Let anyone do electrical work? Throw our licences in the trash?

Not at all. Fine them, tax them, garnish their other wages for damages. But putting someone in a cell for this kind of crime is ridiculous. If they were criminally negligent in their work and caused a fire or death, then jail would be appropriate. But jailing someone for simply getting caught unlicensed is Orwellian and scary.

eddy current 02-04-2019 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoolWill (Post 5157062)
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy current (Post 5157050)
So what do you think should be done? Let anyone do electrical work? Throw our licences in the trash?

Not at all. Fine them, tax them, garnish their other wages for damages. But putting someone in a cell for this kind of crime is ridiculous. If they were criminally negligent in their work and caused a fire or death, then jail would be appropriate. But jailing someone for simply getting caught unlicensed is Orwellian and scary.

I agree with that

electricguy 02-05-2019 04:20 AM

Insurance companies here are asking for permits when buyers buy a new to them home. I guess they cant trust the real estate disclosures when asked if any non permitted work was done. because every seller is honest about that :D

eddy current 02-05-2019 06:38 AM

And this thread is a perfect example of why there are rules to becoming an electrical contractor and for having jobs inspected so guys don’t go out on the side and wire sub panels without a proper ground.

spinninwheels 02-05-2019 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy current (Post 5156640)
The old rule allowed you to install a ground plate at each building but you had to bond the neutral to it as well at each building.

That rule is no longer there in the 2018.

With the new code, The sub panel you installed must be bonded back at the main, you canít do it the way you have done. The way you did it, there is no way for any fault current on the ground from the sub panel to make it back to the source except through the earth.

I never noticed this change, as the 2018 has yet to be adopted here in BC. And the more interesting topic on this section was the handling of the grounding/bonding within the meter base (insulated neutral bus).

I guess this means triplex will give way to quadplex in a rural situation, ie: main service building feeding other out-buildings on the property supplied by the same service.

eddy current 02-05-2019 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spinninwheels (Post 5157232)
I guess this means triplex will give way to quadplex in a rural situation, ie: main service building feeding other out-buildings on the property supplied by the same service.

I assume so. It is one of the questions I will be looking for clarification on when Ontario runs an update class.

Morty88 02-05-2019 11:08 PM

I’ve known of a few electrical contractors in Alberta that are not master electricians and one of them wasn’t even journeyman. They “sub” off someone with theirs and get them to pull permits. Not saying it’s right but unfortunately it’s happening. Their work isn’t good either. I help doing another job from time to time and have came across outlet boxes not bonded, no vapour boot on attic pots (which is against local building code but they get away some how, even if IC rated), then just quality of work such as lights not in a line, different height gang boxes if on same stud (receptacle & tv outlet). I’d love to see the lack of needing a masters ticket corrected here.

Code Man 02-06-2019 04:06 PM

You must pull a bond back to the main panel. What you have done is dangerous. With no path back to the source the overcurrent devices will not operate in the event of a fault.

As far as the meter base goes regarding the new code, the neutral conductor will be permitted to be bonded at the meter base a second time until the standard for manufacturing meter bases is updated and isolated neutral meter bases are available.

eddy current 02-06-2019 04:27 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Code Man (Post 5157746)
You must pull a bond back to the main panel. What you have done is dangerous. With no path back to the source the overcurrent devices will not operate in the event of a fault.

As far as the meter base goes regarding the new code, the neutral conductor will be permitted to be bonded at the meter base a second time until the standard for manufacturing meter bases is updated and isolated neutral meter bases are available.

Isolated neutral kits for meter bases have been available for a long time. I have installed a few over the years where I had a disconnect before the meter. (Not residential)

I actually bought one last month, supplier carried it as a stock item in fact.


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