2020 GFCI Requirements - Page 2 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > NEC Code Forum


Like Tree45Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2019, 09:31 AM   #21
Can't Remember
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 8,929
Rewards Points: 812
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Signal1 View Post
Wasn't that the one where a guy jumped the neutral and ground in the receptacle?
Something about a finished basement if I recall?

I think there's a pic somewhere.

im gonna pay for this
I'll have to ask the inspector next time I see him so I get my story straight. It may have more to do with the range frame being lit up and the pipes being bonded. I forget that exact details. I've seen the range frame lit up before even though it was bonded.
nrp3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-10-2019, 11:05 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,129
Rewards Points: 7,520
Default

I remember at grandma’s house you had to be careful when using the kitchen sink. If you were touching the range and the sink at the same time you would get quite the lifter! Lol
eddy current is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 11:52 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 546
Rewards Points: 84
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
I'll have to ask the inspector next time I see him so I get my story straight. It may have more to do with the range frame being lit up and the pipes being bonded. I forget that exact details. I've seen the range frame lit up before even though it was bonded.
Anytime the neutral is connected to a dryer or range frame, and a person provides a path by touching the frame and another grounded object, a shock is likely. Hence the requirement for a 4 wire supply.
Mulder is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-10-2019, 12:06 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
CoolWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: SC
Posts: 1,701
Rewards Points: 1,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
Anytime the neutral is connected to a dryer or range frame, and a person provides a path by touching the frame and another grounded object, a shock is likely. Hence the requirement for a 4 wire supply.
That's not true. It isn't likely. The copper neutral is so much of a better conductor than the human body that all but micro or nano amps would travel through a person. If the neutral becomes open though, that's another matter.
tmessner, splatz and positron like this.
CoolWill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:09 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
HertzHound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: East coast
Posts: 318
Rewards Points: 464
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by svh19044 View Post
I have been using the afci/gfci breakers for the past year on all new circuits so it's a non issue. The finished area was already required to be afci, and the afci/gfci breakers are the same price. No brainer, just throw in the dual protection.

As for the 240v gfci protection, it's adding on a (percentage wise) substantial cost to an already costly part of wiring where I don't believe it has ever been an issue. So what has happened to make them now become gfci protected?
If I put a 120V receptacle beside a sink in a restaurant it needs to be GFCI protected. If it’s 208V, it’s not required. Explain that.
I can’t explain it. This is the change that was added in our last code book.

(B)Other Than Dwelling Units.
All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1)Bathrooms
(2)Kitchens
(3)Rooftops
__________________
“Why say lot words when few words do trick”
HertzHound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:22 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 546
Rewards Points: 84
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolWill View Post
That's not true. It isn't likely. The copper neutral is so much of a better conductor than the human body that all but micro or nano amps would travel through a person. If the neutral becomes open though, that's another matter.
If the resistance of a body is 100,000 ohms the current through that body would be 1.2 milliamps if the voltage is 120 volts. Wet or cracked skin can significantly reduce the resistance. A person will feel 1.2 milliamps.
positron likes this.
Mulder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:41 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
CoolWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: SC
Posts: 1,701
Rewards Points: 1,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
If the resistance of a body is 100,000 ohms the current through that body would be 1.2 milliamps if the voltage is 120 volts. Wet or cracked skin can significantly reduce the resistance. A person will feel 1.2 milliamps.
But the voltage won't be 120 volts.
CoolWill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 01:05 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 546
Rewards Points: 84
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolWill View Post
But the voltage won't be 120 volts.

The resistance is likely to be a lot lower than 100k ohms.


The International Electrotechnical Commission gives the following values for the total body impedance of a hand to hand circuit for dry skin, large contact areas, 50 Hz AC currents (the columns contain the distribution of the impedance in the population percentile; for example at 100 V 50% of the population had an impedance of 1875Ω or less):

Voltage 5% 50% 95%
25 V 1,750 Ω 3,250 Ω 6,100 Ω
100 V 1,200 Ω 1,875 Ω 3,200 Ω
220 V 1,000 Ω 1,350 Ω 2,125 Ω
1000 V 700 Ω 1,050 Ω 1,500 Ω
Mulder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 01:18 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
CoolWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: SC
Posts: 1,701
Rewards Points: 1,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
The resistance is likely to be a lot lower than 100k ohms.


The International Electrotechnical Commission gives the following values for the total body impedance of a hand to hand circuit for dry skin, large contact areas, 50 Hz AC currents (the columns contain the distribution of the impedance in the population percentile; for example at 100 V 50% of the population had an impedance of 1875Ω or less):

Voltage 5% 50% 95%
25 V 1,750 Ω 3,250 Ω 6,100 Ω
100 V 1,200 Ω 1,875 Ω 3,200 Ω
220 V 1,000 Ω 1,350 Ω 2,125 Ω
1000 V 700 Ω 1,050 Ω 1,500 Ω
Ok, we're still talking about less than 1 volt. You can barely feel that on your tongue.
CoolWill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 01:46 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,129
Rewards Points: 7,520
Default

At my grandma’s house, I think one of the hots was accidentally connected to the frame of the range and it was not grounded because when you touched the range frame and the sink at the same time it was a huge shock!
eddy current is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 02:16 PM   #31
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 26,527
Rewards Points: 15,405
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddy current View Post
At my grandma’s house, I think one of the hots was accidentally connected to the frame of the range and it was not grounded because when you touched the range frame and the sink at the same time it was a huge shock!

Probably somebody either changed out the cord or the outlet and swapped the neutral and one hot wire on the terminals. I bet it took a long time when grandma was baking cookies and pies.
eddy current likes this.
__________________
Thought for the Day: President Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to EVER step foot in North Korea... Obama got a Nobel Peace Prize for being black.
macmikeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 04:37 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,129
Rewards Points: 7,520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
Probably somebody either changed out the cord or the outlet and swapped the neutral and one hot wire on the terminals. I bet it took a long time when grandma was baking cookies and pies.
One thanksgiving my cousins were having a contest to see who could hold on to both the longest! I didn’t like that game
eddy current is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 05:07 PM   #33
Elderly Member
 
jelhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: The Volunteer State
Posts: 549
Rewards Points: 1,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchestersparky View Post
I've been looking into the 2020 NEC ….

BIG changes are being proposed for the 2020 GFCI requirements in dwellings !!

GFCI requirement for unfinished AND FINSHED basements

240 volt receptacles in areas listed in 210.8 being proposed to be GFCI
Items like the Dryer Receptacle, any 240 volt receptacle in garages/shops, just to name a few.

Interesting things are coming _ Worth the time to review the 2020 on the NFPA website...

Based on another thread (That has nothing to do with you Manchester) I could say something about the dryer receptacle deal, but I have decided to treat everyone super nice on ET.
__________________
....

Last edited by jelhill; 02-10-2019 at 05:09 PM.
jelhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 05:11 PM   #34
Elderly Member
 
jelhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: The Volunteer State
Posts: 549
Rewards Points: 1,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchestersparky View Post
I've been looking into the 2020 NEC ….

BIG changes are being proposed for the 2020 GFCI requirements in dwellings !!

GFCI requirement for unfinished AND FINSHED basements

240 volt receptacles in areas listed in 210.8 being proposed to be GFCI
Items like the Dryer Receptacle, any 240 volt receptacle in garages/shops, just to name a few.

Interesting things are coming _ Worth the time to review the 2020 on the NFPA website...

Are they requiring even more AFCI's?
__________________
....
jelhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 06:34 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 546
Rewards Points: 84
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolWill View Post
Ok, we're still talking about less than 1 volt. You can barely feel that on your tongue.
The voltage and current would be dependent on the resistances involved and Ohm's law.
Mulder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 06:44 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
CoolWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: SC
Posts: 1,701
Rewards Points: 1,682
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder View Post
The voltage and current would be dependent on the resistances involved and Ohm's law.
The voltage is dependent on the potential on the frame of the dryer, which is the same as the voltage drop across the neutral, which is almost zero. Zero volts across any resistance is zero amps.
CoolWill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 07:16 PM   #37
Petulant Amateur
 
99cents's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Perky Nipples, Canada
Posts: 20,327
Rewards Points: 11,019
Default

They should just put GFCI protection in appliances. A soccer mom will spend $2000 on an appliance and then become a barracuda over the cost to wire it.
svh19044 and CoolWill like this.
99cents is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 99cents For This Useful Post:
Dan the electricman (02-10-2019)
Old 02-11-2019, 05:36 PM   #38
Professional Nit Picker
 
manchestersparky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,241
Rewards Points: 2,120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 99cents View Post
If I put a 120V receptacle beside a sink in a restaurant it needs to be GFCI protected. If it’s 208V, it’s not required. Explain that.
Not Here !
All single phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and all 3 phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less require GFCI protection
99cents likes this.
__________________
Anything Worth Doing ....
Is Worth Doing Right
manchestersparky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 07:46 PM   #39
MTW
Senior Member
 
MTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 14,209
Rewards Points: 7,562
Default

I'm so glad we have the NEC to protect us from the hazards of electricity by requiring more expensive products that make manufacturers lots of profit.
CoolWill likes this.
MTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 08:45 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NH
Posts: 575
Rewards Points: 1,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTW View Post
I'm so glad we have the NEC to protect us from the hazards of electricity by requiring more expensive products that make manufacturers lots of profit.

As much as i agree with this, More expensive products make me more profit too. I get a percentage cut on everything I sell At least the GFCI is proven tech and not defective voodoo bull$hit like arc faults.
splatz likes this.
JoeSparky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Delta wired gfci Mikelite General Electrical Discussion 69 01-07-2019 10:41 PM
Where is the GFCI protection sammedit Residential Electrical Forum 6 06-02-2018 10:48 AM
QO Single Pole GFCI Issue Takideezy Residential Electrical Forum 2 08-29-2017 08:28 PM
Can a pool pump burn out GFCI receptacles? HackWork General Electrical Discussion 116 06-06-2017 09:03 AM
Blank Face GFCI Question Ducatiguy Canadian Electrical Forum 5 01-11-2016 04:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com