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Old 01-04-2016, 02:27 PM   #1
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Default AFCI in 2017

2017 NEC will complete the afci requirements for dwellings !!

REVISION: 210.12(A) – WHOLE-HOUSE AFCI PROTECTION
The continual expansion for arc-fault circuit-interrupter (AFCI) protection appears to be complete with the proposed revisions to 210.12(A), which would require AFCI protection for all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling units. The “laundry list” of rooms or areas requiring AFCI protection was removed, leaving AFCI protection required for the entire dwelling unit. By the time the 2017 edition of the NEC is published, the electrical industry will have over 15 years of experience with the manufacture and installation of AFCI devices, and over 9 years of experience with combination-type (detects both parallel and series arcing events) AFCI devices. With the expanded requirement in the 2014 NEC, there were very few 120-volt single-phase 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits in a dwelling unit (garages and bathrooms) that did not require AFCI protection. This will accomplish the original objective sought by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) to reduce residential electrical wiring fires from the original AFCI proposals in the early 1990s.

CMP-2 also chose to delete 210.12(A)(4)(d), which required listing both the outlet branch-circuit (OBC) AFCI outlet device and the branch-circuit overcurrent device as a “System Combination.” This revision will basically allow the OBC AFCI outlet device to be installed at the first outlet of a branch circuit to provide the necessary AFCI protection. Substantiation for this revision provided significant statistical assurance that the “home run” portion of the branch circuit is protected from parallel arcing faults and the arcing for “hammer-damaged cable” exhibited arcing in less than 10 percent of the surge events and exhibited arcing that lasted over a single half-cycle.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:52 PM   #2
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... By the time the 2017 edition of the NEC is published, the electrical industry will have over 15 years of experience with the manufacture and installation of AFCI devices, and over 9 years of experience with combination-type (detects both parallel and series arcing events) AFCI devices........
And ZERO years figuring out why they still trip for no reason.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:58 PM   #3
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Its funny, because arcing is not even a problem at 120 volts. A few mouse clicks away to Eaton and GE's industrial or utility divisions say the exact opposite of their residential division.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...,d.cGc&cad=rja


http://optimalcontrol.net/user_manua..._GET-3212C.pdf
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:24 PM   #4
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Its funny, because arcing is not even a problem at 120 volts.
Why not... I have seen arcing melt a plastic box and have seen a 24v lighting system wirenut melt right off from the arcing. Do you think that there is no way that could start a fire?

I have seen a fire started by an open JB behind a kitchen cabinet where the cover was left off and the wires arced.
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:03 PM   #5
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Why not... I have seen arcing melt a plastic box and have seen a 24v lighting system wirenut melt right off from the arcing. Do you think that there is no way that could start a fire?

I have seen a fire started by an open JB behind a kitchen cabinet where the cover was left off and the wires arced.

There is a difference between arcing and joule heating.
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Old 01-04-2016, 05:51 PM   #6
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There is a phenomenal difference between arcing and joule heating.
fify....

sorry AT



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Old 01-04-2016, 06:00 PM   #7
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2017 NEC will complete the afci requirements for dwellings !!

The ROP's went through unopposed i'm told, save for the lamentation of a one cmp member who will quickly be forgotten.

Myself, i'll be adding an average of $1000 a bid new construction, contracting all reno work inclusive of afci interface callbacks @ premium rates, as well as all smoke jobs (which usually require afci protection via 210.12B) , etc as nauseum

(btw, i've already gone through the litigant meatgrinder via afci induced freeze up)

But that isn't the best part.....

I'll be forwarding a direct # to state AHJ's and officials for ANY complaints

In fact, i'm advising all EC's to follow suit

~CS~
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:10 PM   #8
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The ROP's went through unopposed i'm told, save for the lamentation of a one cmp member who will quickly be forgotten.

Myself, i'll be adding an average of $1000 a bid new construction, contracting all reno work inclusive of afci interface callbacks @ premium rates, as well as all smoke jobs (which usually require afci protection via 210.12B) , etc as nauseum

(btw, i've already gone through the litigant meatgrinder via afci induced freeze up)

But that isn't the best part.....

I'll be forwarding a direct # to state AHJ's and officials for ANY complaints

In fact, i'm advising all EC's to follow suit

~CS~

Arent any of these inspectors cutting you slack?
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:15 PM   #9
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Arent any of these inspectors cutting you slack?
I don't expect them , nor do i ask them to AT

What i do expect is the state to stand behind their doctrine

My (et all) tax $$$'s go towards said personal responsibility.

~CS~
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:21 PM   #10
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I don't expect them , nor do i ask them to AT

What i do expect is the state to stand behind their doctrine

My (et all) tax $$$'s go towards said personal responsibility.

~CS~

You know the gang better then I do, but Id fight. Those who blindly follow authority are my peeve. (Not you, but the inspectors who believe this merde)
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:37 PM   #11
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There is a difference between arcing and joule heating.
And what does joule heating have to do with it. We are talking arc flash to some degree. Joule heating is basically running power through an element or metal.
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Old 01-04-2016, 06:56 PM   #12
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And what does joule heating have to do with it. We are talking arc flash to some degree. Joule heating is basically running power through an element or metal.
Are we really? ... there is no evidence that self sustaining arcs even exist on 120/240 volt systems.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:23 PM   #13
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They are going to force AFCI's on the Third World Next ...

There will be no Running from them ...




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Old 01-04-2016, 08:42 PM   #14
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And what does joule heating have to do with it. We are talking arc flash to some degree. Joule heating is basically running power through an element or metal.


Everything. Joule heating is the direct result of a high resistance connection usually caused by poor contact (such as a loose connection)

Arc flash not the same as arcing. Arc flash is the ball of energy released when you short circuit something, such as dropping a wrench across live buss bars in switch-gear.
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:43 PM   #15
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Are we really? ... there is no evidence that self sustaining arcs even exist on 120/240 volt systems.

I agree, ask any POCO running large underground networks. Arcing is rarely a concern at 120/208, but come 277/480 all the engineers will get wide eyed.
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Old 01-05-2016, 02:19 AM   #16
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Everything. Joule heating is the direct result of a high resistance connection usually caused by poor contact (such as a loose connection)

Arc flash not the same as arcing. Arc flash is the ball of energy released when you short circuit something, such as dropping a wrench across live buss bars in switch-gear.



It will VAPORIZE a few feet of Bus Bar....Until blows itself out ...




Pete

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Old 01-05-2016, 06:59 AM   #17
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[QUOTE=AcidTrip;2490097]You know the gang better then I do, but Id fight. Those who blindly follow authority are my peeve. (Not you, but the inspectors who believe this merde)[/QUOTE

I've waited almost 20 yrs for this AT .....

Manufacturers will only be confronted as to afci efficacy is through proliferation of the product .

So bring them on! No more 'bench sitters' or 'cheerleaders' or 'NEC partisans'

Make the Insurance men, AHJ's , Reps, et all bureaucratic entities (state and federal) accountable, responsible , and inescapable of their collective decision

THEN, maybe they'll rise to the lofty literary level of actually reading something beyond 210.12....


~CS~
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Old 01-05-2016, 09:32 AM   #18
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It will VAPORIZE a few feet of Bus Bar....Until blows itself out ...




Pete

Correct, but in home wiring a short circuit trips a breaker. In fact because 120 volts can not sustain itself typical short circuits had to be re-labelled as arcing:

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Old 01-05-2016, 09:33 AM   #19
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[quote=chicken steve;2491025]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrip View Post
You know the gang better then I do, but Id fight. Those who blindly follow authority are my peeve. (Not you, but the inspectors who believe this merde)[/QUOTE

I've waited almost 20 yrs for this AT .....

Manufacturers will only be confronted as to afci efficacy is through proliferation of the product .

So bring them on! No more 'bench sitters' or 'cheerleaders' or 'NEC partisans'

Make the Insurance men, AHJ's , Reps, et all bureaucratic entities (state and federal) accountable, responsible , and inescapable of their collective decision

THEN, maybe they'll rise to the lofty literary level of actually reading something beyond 210.12....


~CS~

I think all of the above have been brainwashed and mislead by a trillion dollar industry.
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Old 01-05-2016, 10:57 AM   #20
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So you are saying that joule heating is not an arc. Well I may have to disagree with that. If , in fact, an arc fault is tripping do to arcs then how does one explain the vacuum phenomena. Is it really joule heating that is tripping the afci in these situations?

Sounds like a bit semantics to me.

It seems that every thread on afci a few members get on their soap box on this issue. I have seen documentation stating both that afci work and some that deny it. I admit I don't keep up on the studies but if you truly think this is worthless then substantiate your claims and make proposals.

I respect your opinion but to be honest I am not convinced either way however I do know that I have to deal with it.... Talk here is fine but it will not change the rules.
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