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Old 08-17-2017, 07:21 AM   #41
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(There's a story behind this one, some may be familiar with it)

True or false, Duct tape used to secure NM cable to framing members must be UL listed.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:20 AM   #42
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(There's a story behind this one, some may be familiar with it)

True or false, Duct tape used to secure NM cable to framing members must be UL listed.


There is a story behind this one. The story is that you have yet to provide a code reference for this and you are wrong.



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Old 08-17-2017, 09:28 AM   #43
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There is a story behind this one. The story is that you have yet to provide a code reference for this and you are wrong.
In addition to that, he has been wrong about at least 5 other code issues and every time I ask him to substantiate it he completely ignores it.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:21 AM   #44
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In addition to that, he has been wrong about at least 5 other code issues and every time I ask him to substantiate it he completely ignores it.


He may be an electrician, but I wouldn't let him wire my house. Not even just to add a phone wire.


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Old 08-17-2017, 12:45 PM   #45
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[QUOTE=joebanana;4242649](There's a story behind this one, some may be familiar with it)

True or false, Duct tape used to secure NM cable to framing members must be UL listed.[/QUOTE


This started out as a friggin' JOKE. This being a forum for "professional's", I thought that a reply from another member to a post was in jest, because it sure wasn't "professional". That reply being a claim that he uses duct tape, string, and Ty-Raps to secure NM cables.
So, I ask if that "duct tape" is UL listed, as per 110.3(B) "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed, and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing and labeling", no exception. I thought that was a reasonable question to an offhanded comment. So, then this other member gets all indignant demanding a code section, and I give him one, REPEATEDLY, 110.3(B). Not to mention the violation of 110.12, "neat and workman like manner".
Either that other member doesn't understand English, is deliberately trying to start a flame war, or is just being an azz-**** (According to other members PM's, it's the last one). Now it appears that he has two accounts.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:58 PM   #46
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In order for 110.3b to work in what you are saying, the romex listing itself would have to specifically state that only certain items can be used to support it, which it doesn't.

As for neat and workmanship like manner, that is an opinion and generally unenforceable. Never mind the fact that you can make a very neat installation with tiewraps and other nonconventional methods.

The fact of the matter is that it is 100% code compliant to use tie wraps or duct tape to support romex. You can bend over a nail if you choose. Unlike other things, such as EMT, romex does not require it's support method to be listed.

It's really that simple.

If you can show a code article saying that romex support is required to be a listed product, please do. But we all know that you won't, much like you won't post this supposed second account of mine

You like to pull "code" out of thin air. Another example:

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Gotta pigtail the neuch anyhow, and you're not supposed to feed thru the tab, so minds well pigtail the hot too.
No, you don't have to pigtail the neutral since it wasn't a MWBC being discussed, and you most certainly can feed thru the tabs on receptacles.

Please, stop attacking me and hit the code book.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:25 PM   #47
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I second hack work on this one. He and I may not always see eye to eye, but in this situation he is 100 percent correct. And Joebanana I know you are prideful and don't like to let your pride and ego take a hit but accepting that you are wrong and moving on shows character and professionalism.


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Old 08-17-2017, 05:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
In order for 110.3b to work in what you are saying, the romex listing itself would have to specifically state that only certain items can be used to support it, which it doesn't.

As for neat and workmanship like manner, that is an opinion and generally unenforceable. Never mind the fact that you can make a very neat installation with tiewraps and other nonconventional methods.

The fact of the matter is that it is 100% code compliant to use tie wraps or duct tape to support romex. You can bend over a nail if you choose. Unlike other things, such as EMT, romex does not require it's support method to be listed.

It's really that simple.

If you can show a code article saying that romex support is required to be a listed product, please do. But we all know that you won't, much like you won't post this supposed second account of mine

You like to pull "code" out of thin air. Another example:


No, you don't have to pigtail the neutral since it wasn't a MWBC being discussed, and you most certainly can feed thru the tabs on receptacles.

Please, stop attacking me and hit the code book.
I myself hate the fact that the whole circuit relies on every receptacle screw. I love pig tailing each receptacle. It's hack to tie the circuit through the receptacle tabs, and many commercial specs require it to be tailed. If it's good enough for a commercial building, it's good enough for my house, or anyone's house I wire. Backstabbing a recept, never. The code is a minimum. My opinion lets me sleep better at night.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:54 PM   #49
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I myself hate the fact that the whole circuit relies on every receptacle screw. I love pig tailing each receptacle. It's hack to tie the circuit through the receptacle tabs, and many commercial specs require it to be tailed. If it's good enough for a commercial building, it's good enough for my house, or anyone's house I wire. Backstabbing a recept, never. The code is a minimum. My opinion lets me sleep better at night.
Not everyone can do what you do. We put in the job the way the foreman wants it, but, we do best practices at the house.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cl906um View Post
I myself hate the fact that the whole circuit relies on every receptacle screw. I love pig tailing each receptacle. It's hack to tie the circuit through the receptacle tabs, and many commercial specs require it to be tailed. If it's good enough for a commercial building, it's good enough for my house, or anyone's house I wire. Backstabbing a recept, never. The code is a minimum. My opinion lets me sleep better at night.
That's fine, I don't disagree with this.

My post is only about code.

There are a lot of job specs and etiquette that we all follow as general baselines, but posting them as code requirements on an open forum is extremely irresponsible.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:06 PM   #51
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That's fine, I don't disagree with this.

My post is only about code.

There are a lot of job specs and etiquette that we all follow as general baselines, but posting them as code requirements on an open forum is extremely irresponsible.
Yep. And the code is the opinion of many board members, it is easier to troubleshoot a circuit when there is a black mark from soot above the backstabbed recept. Easy to find, hard to fix. I like a quality job. For what we we charge, people deserve a quality job. I have seen lazy electricians backstab #12. Push hard, go easy. Don't tell me it can't be done.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:11 PM   #52
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I couldn't do it yesterday. I accidentally mixed in a #12 pigtail when making up a 4 gang switchbox. When I went there yesterday to finish up and install the switches, one of the tails wouldn't go into the profit hole. I realized it was #12. It was one of those odd ones in which the insulation had a smaller diameter than usual. Different brand I guess.

I had to wrap that sucker around the screw.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:30 PM   #53
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I couldn't do it yesterday. I accidentally mixed in a #12 pigtail when making up a 4 gang switchbox. When I went there yesterday to finish up and install the switches, one of the tails wouldn't go into the profit hole. I realized it was #12. It was one of those odd ones in which the insulation had a smaller diameter than usual. Different brand I guess.

I had to wrap that sucker around the screw.
I guess I work with some anal coworkers. With solid, they won't even backwire. The wrap around method is the only way. Fighting the recept into the box apparently loosens the termination too much. Hard to change 30 years into the making. He was one of my earlier tool partner and recently retired. Every slightly dog legged conduit whether exposed or conceiled had to be tweaked. Never installed..
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:36 PM   #54
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I second hack work on this one. He and I may not always see eye to eye


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Old 08-17-2017, 06:52 PM   #55
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I guess I work with some anal coworkers. With solid, they won't even backwire. The wrap around method is the only way. Fighting the recept into the box apparently loosens the termination too much. Hard to change 30 years into the making. He was one of my earlier tool partner and recently retired. Every slightly dog legged conduit whether exposed or conceiled had to be tweaked. Never installed..
I made a post about that the other day. Backwiring under the little washer with #12 can sometimes loosen a bit when shaping the device in and the wire twists and rolls away from the center screw a bit.

For the most solid installations, I like the holes on the back of the device like GFCI's have, the lug inside is a little different and makes the best connection with heavy gauge wire, IMO.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:35 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cl906um View Post
I myself hate the fact that the whole circuit relies on every receptacle screw. I love pig tailing each receptacle. It's hack to tie the circuit through the receptacle tabs, and many commercial specs require it to be tailed. If it's good enough for a commercial building, it's good enough for my house, or anyone's house I wire. Backstabbing a recept, never. The code is a minimum. My opinion lets me sleep better at night.

Keep in mind that by pigtailing every receptacle, you are taking away future work for us service guys Start stabbing please
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:59 PM   #57
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The increase in my pay rate after I pass this test.
Okay, so:

125% is the motor FLA rating of *most* overloads. this is section is
125% is also the rating required for circuit protection for motor controllers, such as VFD's and servo drives. Section 430.122(B) and this is a magic number in a few other sections.
130% & 140% Section 430.2(C) says that, essentially, if you are getting nuisance trips you are allowed to increase the size of your overloads, but you cannot exceed the following rules:

Motors with marked service factor 1.15 or greater: 140%
Motors with a marked temperature rise 40C or less: 140%
All other motors: 130%

115% is 432.A(1) and states that if the overload is not an integrated part of the motor, the separate device shall be sized as 125% if the service factor is marked as 1.15 or larger or if the temperature rise is 40C or less. All other motor's overloads are to be set to 115%. These device's protection can be modified based on the rules above.

Thanks for this question. It really got me digging into the code book!
Also, sorry about the delay, just got settled in from my move and got my PC back online.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:08 PM   #58
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You've got a lot more of our code questions to answer sparkiez, don't stop!!!

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Old 08-17-2017, 09:20 PM   #59
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Here you go then>





We've a code ref, a code table, a code ex. addressing 334.80

Which apply ,OR do not apply to romex in spray foam insulation UNDER 24"

& good luck on your test sparkiez

~CS~
The 24" rule will not apply here because it specifically mentions in the code book that an exception to the above mentioned rule about derating foam-sealed penetrations in wood frames does not apply.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:21 PM   #60
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Is a coupling a fitting?
Well, at least I have always categorized it with other pipe fittings.
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