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Old 07-30-2020, 12:56 PM   #1
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Default Engineer definition

I never worried about this before since people above my paygrade dealt with it. When the NEC talks about an engineer, engineering and engineering supervision, what is the legal meaning of the terms and phrases?

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Old 07-30-2020, 01:01 PM   #2
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I never worried about this before since people above my paygrade dealt with it. When the NEC talk about an engineer, engineering and engineering supervision, what is the legal meaning of the terms and phrases?

Example




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Old 07-30-2020, 01:03 PM   #3
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Here are all the sections where “engineer” is mentioned




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Old 07-30-2020, 01:11 PM   #4
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One could argue that only applies to that article, but it seems safe to take that definition code wide. Its odd though that it appears here but not in other places where the term is used. Thanks a ton for that. You have a searchable version of the code on your phone? I didnt even know such a thing existed.

Thanks Veloci3
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Old 07-30-2020, 01:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingsod View Post
One could argue that only applies to that article, but it seems safe to take that definition code wide. Its odd though that it appears here but not in other places where the term is used. Thanks a ton for that. You have a searchable version of the code on your phone? I didnt even know such a thing existed.

Thanks Veloci3

Yes. Through the Apple store. NEC 2017


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Old 07-30-2020, 02:30 PM   #6
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An engineer could mean anything, and you'd want the NEC to define it, but "licensed professional engineer" is very clearly defined by the normal usage of the term, no need for a NEC definition. It is someone with a PE license valid in the location. (PE licenses are usually by state.)
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:18 PM   #7
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:37 PM   #8
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Engineer: Typically an educated idiot with the brain of a goldfish and an ego of a politician.

Contrary to popular belief, the purpose of engineering college is not to teach the student how to properly design electrical systems but rather to remove any trace of basic common sense and replace it with the largest possible ego.

There are exceptions but in my experience, they are rare.
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Old 07-30-2020, 06:44 PM   #9
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:01 PM   #10
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Engineering supervision means you are being supervised by a Licensed Professional Engineer. The AHJ would not accept anything less than a licensed Professional Engineer in whatever state you are in.
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Old 07-30-2020, 09:35 PM   #11
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BS = Bull stuff
MS = More stuff
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper


Some days I feel like the only reason I went to school was so I could learn how to tell them they're idiots in their own language.


If engineers would just accept the fact that non-engineers have good ideas too, and that not all answers come from a book or a google search, then things would go better for everybody.


What we have today though is insanity. The state licensing agencies would have you believe that 5th grade math teachers are breaking the law because only licensed professional engineers can do math. Or express an opinion. And that the only way you can get a license in the first place is by working in isolation as far away from the real world as possible generating paper that you expect everyone else to follow even when it conflicts with the real world (engineering firms) based on something that you read about in a book written by other engineers that don't have a clue either. They actually went after a guy in Oregon for the crime of proving that a red light camera system was rigged because they adjusted the timing on the light so it changed fast enough that you would get caught every time if you went the speed limit. His crime was doing math without an engineering license.


Despite all of that, the NEC holds electricians to a standard of basically checking the work and fixing all the screw ups that the engineer did despite the fact that doing so is flat out illegal according to the state engineering regulations because electricians are doing math and expressing an opinion without a license.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:11 PM   #12
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Along with the title " Engineer" I wonder what the expression " qualified personal " means. They use to use the term " authorized personal " but who does the authorizing?
Also when required to fill out an " energized work permit " who fills that out? Titles and procedures are getting more and more comprehensive.
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Old 07-31-2020, 01:09 AM   #13
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Engineer was the guy at the front end of the train. The 2 coal guys standing behind him would shovel black stuff into his furnace. I think they were called tenders.
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Old 07-31-2020, 07:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulengr View Post
BS = Bull stuff
MS = More stuff
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper


Some days I feel like the only reason I went to school was so I could learn how to tell them they're idiots in their own language.


If engineers would just accept the fact that non-engineers have good ideas too, and that not all answers come from a book or a google search, then things would go better for everybody.


What we have today though is insanity. The state licensing agencies would have you believe that 5th grade math teachers are breaking the law because only licensed professional engineers can do math. Or express an opinion. And that the only way you can get a license in the first place is by working in isolation as far away from the real world as possible generating paper that you expect everyone else to follow even when it conflicts with the real world (engineering firms) based on something that you read about in a book written by other engineers that don't have a clue either. They actually went after a guy in Oregon for the crime of proving that a red light camera system was rigged because they adjusted the timing on the light so it changed fast enough that you would get caught every time if you went the speed limit. His crime was doing math without an engineering license.


Despite all of that, the NEC holds electricians to a standard of basically checking the work and fixing all the screw ups that the engineer did despite the fact that doing so is flat out illegal according to the state engineering regulations because electricians are doing math and expressing an opinion without a license.

This guy: https://reason.com/2017/04/26/after-...-cameras-oreg/
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Old 07-31-2020, 08:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Along with the title " Engineer" I wonder what the expression " qualified personal " means. They use to use the term " authorized personal " but who does the authorizing?
Also when required to fill out an " energized work permit " who fills that out? Titles and procedures are getting more and more comprehensive.

There are “authorized” , “competent” and “qualified” persons titles used in both NFPA and OSHA rules.

Authorized: having approval from the employer or property owner or governing body to access a place or perform a task(s).

Competent: a person that can readily identify hazards and make corrective changes.

Qualified: a person having higher knowledge of a specific subject or certifications.


It gets confusing with arc safety.

Qualified: can work within the limited approach boundary but cannot work within the restricted approach boundary unless you have some OSHA certification.




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Old 07-31-2020, 10:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VELOCI3 View Post
There are “authorized” , “competent” and “qualified” persons titles used in both NFPA and OSHA rules.

Authorized: having approval from the employer or property owner or governing body to access a place or perform a task(s).

Competent: a person that can readily identify hazards and make corrective changes.

Qualified: a person having higher knowledge of a specific subject or certifications.


It gets confusing with arc safety.

Qualified: can work within the limited approach boundary but cannot work within the restricted approach boundary unless you have some OSHA certification.




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Work in hospitals or petrol/chemical plants and it gets more confusing if you talk to more than 1 person.
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:18 PM   #17
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The interpretations of qualified, authorized, competent etc.. are very subjective. I worked at a place once where the lunch lady had more common sense that the HSE manager. They would take a porter and promote him to a maintenance electrician. The definitions are very plain in the NEC and OSHA but who makes up and who supervise the testing?
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
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The interpretations of qualified, authorized, competent etc.. are very subjective. I worked at a place once where the lunch lady had more common sense that the HSE manager. They would take a porter and promote him to a maintenance electrician. The definitions are very plain in the NEC and OSHA but who makes up and who supervise the testing?

Within the OSHA rules the employer makes those decisions.


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Old 08-02-2020, 10:29 PM   #19
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Just more perfectly great reasons not to have any employee's in the first place.




Prevent unwarranted government intrusion into your business today. Fire all employee's !
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:33 PM   #20
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Definition: Electrical Engineer:
- The person responsible for the most complicated solution for installing a circuit that will never work. When circuit fails said person will put blame on contractor/installer. Only after many man hours of deliberation and 3 ways to prove original design does not work, will one allow a deviation if they so choose at their own expense.
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