EVSE GFCI redux - 2017 nec TIA 625.54 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > NEC Code Forum


Like Tree15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-28-2019, 02:06 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 464
Rewards Points: 747
Default EVSE GFCI redux - 2017 nec TIA 625.54

My local inspector provided me with the attached TIA, going into effect around here in February/March 2020, which states:

625.54 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. All single-phase receptacles installed for the connection of electric vehicle charging that are rated 150 volts to ground or less, and 50 amperes or less shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. [emphasis added]

This applies to receptacles only, not to hard-wired installations.

The problem is that every brand of EV charger (EVSE) that I install, both hard-wired and plug-in models, has GFCI built in. Over a number of experiments so far, when plugged into a circuit protected by a (pricey) GFCI breaker, they do not function. They REQUIRE NO GFCI.

So now what???

TIA_70_17_2.pdf

Last edited by mikewillnot; 11-28-2019 at 02:09 PM.
mikewillnot is online now   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-28-2019, 09:46 PM   #2
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

What if it's not for an electric vehicle? You are just installing an outlet for an RV or welder, right?

As for vehicle chargers not working with GFCI protection, I never knew that. Why don't they work? How do they know? What happens in commercial buildings with GFP mains? Sounds fishy.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2019, 11:47 PM   #3
MTW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Northeast USA
Posts: 15,157
Rewards Points: 9,482
Default

Only one month to go before this travesty is adopted in Massachusetts.
MTW is online now   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-29-2019, 01:04 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

That’s a poorly written requirement.

The way it reads, if you have a 125/250v receptacle, it would need protection.

If you had a 250v receptacle, you wouldn’t.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 07:45 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
CoolWill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: SC
Posts: 2,480
Rewards Points: 3,246
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
That’s a poorly written requirement.

The way it reads, if you have a 125/250v receptacle, it would need protection.

If you had a 250v receptacle, you wouldn’t.
250 V is still "150 V to ground or less".
Service Call and splatz like this.
__________________
I'm With Her! Hillary 2016
CoolWill is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 09:46 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolWill View Post
250 V is still "150 V to ground or less".
The circuit voltage could be, but the voltage rating if the receptacle isn’t.

It says “receptacle” rating not circuit rating.
splatz likes this.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 10:03 AM   #7
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,784
Rewards Points: 210
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolWill View Post
250 V is still "150 V to ground or less".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
The circuit voltage could be, but the voltage rating if the receptacle isn’t.

It says “receptacle” rating not circuit rating.

Of course a receptacle has a voltage rating, but does a receptacle have a voltage-to-ground rating?
__________________
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler
splatz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 10:05 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by splatz View Post
Of course a receptacle has a voltage rating, but does a receptacle have a voltage-to-ground rating?
The whole thing was terribly written, the next code cycle changes it to say circuit.
splatz likes this.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Awg-Dawg For This Useful Post:
splatz (11-29-2019)
Old 11-29-2019, 10:15 AM   #9
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
The circuit voltage could be, but the voltage rating if the receptacle isn’t.

It says “receptacle” rating not circuit rating.
As a receptacle rated 250V single phase, that means that it is rated under 150V to ground.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 10:33 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 201
Rewards Points: 402
Default

I do not have the 2020 code yet but I believe it applies to all receptacles 50 amps or less and 150 volts to ground ( earth ). Ground, grounding, and grounded are sometimes interchanged. I like to use the term Earth and Neutral depending on the situation. Or White and Green depending on who I am talking with.

As I said before, we have to protect the general people from their own stupidity. We as electricians know what we can or should do when it comes to electric equipment. But the millennial who just bought his new TESLA has no idea of what electricity can do. I believe the " thing on the wall" is only a power port and the charger is part of the car. Things get abused by the user and could pose a danger down the road.
If you think about it, every industry is putting " safety measures" into their codes. We have AFCI & GFCI. Cars now have back up alarms and cameras, They are mandating CO and gas detectors. Houses need re-enforced hurricane strapping. Bicycle helmets. Red fire caulk when in most cases regular thermal caulk will do.
kb1jb1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 10:35 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 464
Rewards Points: 747
Default

Most of the replies above are off topic, in a way. I'm concerned about the GFCI problem, and the requirement to put 2 in series, which usually doesn't work.
mikewillnot is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 10:39 AM   #12
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewillnot View Post
Most of the replies above are off topic, in a way. I'm concerned about the GFCI problem, and the requirement to put 2 in series, which usually doesn't work.
My reply was right on topic.

Can you please explain how/why it doesn't work?
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:05 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
As a receptacle rated 250V single phase, that means that it is rated under 150V to ground.
A 480v receptacle would apply also then wouldn’t it?
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:11 AM   #14
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
A 480v receptacle would apply also then wouldn’t it?
No, because that is 277V to ground.
micromind likes this.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:16 AM   #15
Hackenschmidt
 
splatz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,784
Rewards Points: 210
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
As a receptacle rated 250V single phase, that means that it is rated under 150V to ground.
I don't see it that way.



For example, a NEMA 6-50R is RATED for 250V irrespective of the voltage to ground; the rating doesn't mention to 150V to ground. If it so happens that it's installed with 240V coming from the usual residential split phase supply, then 150V to ground. If it happens to be supplied by, say, the high leg of a high leg delta, and one of the other legs, with no neutral, then it is not operating at <150V to ground.
micromind likes this.
__________________
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler
splatz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:23 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
No, because that is 277V to ground.
How can a 250v receptacle be 150v or less and not a 480v?

They are both over 150v.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:25 AM   #17
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by splatz View Post
If it happens to be supplied by, say, the high leg of a high leg delta, and one of the other legs, with no neutral, then it is not operating at <150V to ground.
And then it wouldn't need GFCI protection.
micromind likes this.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:27 AM   #18
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
How can a 250v receptacle be 150v or less and not a 480v?

They are both over 150v.
A nominal 250v feed is 125V to ground, which is less than 150V.

A nominal 480V feed is 277V to ground, which is more than 150A.

Int he super odd situation that splatz mentioned, then it wouldn't apply and GFCI protection wouldn't be required.
micromind likes this.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:33 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,342
Rewards Points: 704
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
A nominal 250v feed is 125V to ground, which is less than 150V.

A nominal 480V feed is 277V to ground, which is more than 150A.

Int he super odd situation that splatz mentioned, then it wouldn't apply and GFCI protection wouldn't be required.


I understand what you’re saying, it’s just the wording doesn’t agree with it.

You’re saying circuit voltage , the wording is saying receptacle voltage.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:35 AM   #20
Mensa Player
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: -
Posts: 34,474
Rewards Points: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
I understand what you’re saying, it’s just the wording doesn’t agree with it.

You’re saying circuit voltage , the wording is saying receptacle voltage.
It's the same both ways.

Test that receptacle to ground and you will get less than 150v. The nominal voltage will also be less than 150V.
__________________
Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate.
HackWork is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com