EVSE GFCI redux - 2017 nec TIA 625.54 - Page 2 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > NEC Code Forum


Like Tree15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-2019, 11:40 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,353
Rewards Points: 726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
It's the same both ways.

Test that receptacle to ground and you will get less than 150v. The nominal voltage will also be less than 150V.
A 480v ungrounded system might show less than 150v to ground.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-29-2019, 11:45 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
A 480v ungrounded system might show less than 150v to ground.
Then you wouldn't need GFCI protection.

You know the meaning, there is no question. I think this is silly.

If you want to pick something apart for the sake of picking something apart, there is far better code articles to do it with.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:48 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,353
Rewards Points: 726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
Then you wouldn't need GFCI protection.

You know the meaning, there is no question. I think this is silly.

If you want to pick something apart for the sake of picking something apart, there is far better code articles to do it with.
I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.

Using your logic , you’re could spend thousands of dollars on gfcis in a Restaurant, I’m only saying that the wording says it’s not provided.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-29-2019, 11:50 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.
You are most certainly picking it apart. It's very clear, there is no question.

Quote:
Using your logic , you’re could spend thousands of dollars on gfcis in a Restaurant
I don't know what that means.

Quote:
I’m only saying that the wording says it’s not provided.
I don't know what this means either.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 11:56 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,353
Rewards Points: 726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
You are most certainly picking it apart. It's very clear, there is no question.

I don't know what that means.



I don't know what this means either.
It’s very clear, i read it like it says.

You read it by adding circuit to the wording, which it doesn’t, that clearly changes the requirement.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:01 PM   #26
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,345
Rewards Points: 1,656
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewillnot View Post

The problem is that every brand of EV charger (EVSE) that I install, both hard-wired and plug-in models, has GFCI built in. Over a number of experiments so far, when plugged into a circuit protected by a (pricey) GFCI breaker, they do not function. They REQUIRE NO GFCI.

So now what???

Attachment 138400
Mike are you sure it has gfci and not gfp built in. If they are both GFCI then there should be no reason for trouble however if there is gfp in the unit and then you install a gfci then I can see a possibility of an issue since they trip at different limits
mikewillnot likes this.
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:03 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
It’s very clear, i read it like it says.

You read it by adding circuit to the wording, which it doesn’t, that clearly changes the requirement.
I didn't add anything to it.

You can pick apart at least a third of the code to find little, tiny, minuscule ways to say how it's not exact int he same way as you are doing here, but we all know exactly what it means, like we do here.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:09 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,353
Rewards Points: 726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
I didn't add anything to it.

You can pick apart at least a third of the code to find little, tiny, minuscule ways to say how it's not exact int he same way as you are doing here, but we all know exactly what it means, like we do here.
I agree that we all know what the intent is.


The CMP does as well and have changed it to read that.


Again, I’m not picking anything apart, I’m only commenting on what it says.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:13 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
The CMP does as well and have changed it to read that.
The CMP has HUNDREDS of other code articles that needs to be addressed first. Code that actually makes us do different installations in different municipalities because the AHJ's see the code completely differently than each other.

This is not one of those instances, everyone know exactly what it means.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:18 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
Awg-Dawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dayton Ohio
Posts: 3,353
Rewards Points: 726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
everyone know exactly what it means.


Apparently not,lol.
__________________
I feel sorry for people who don't drink, when they wake up in the morning, that's the best they will feel all day.
Awg-Dawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:25 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awg-Dawg View Post
Apparently not,lol.
The only person who doesn't know what it means is someone who is picking it apart.

How about getting back to the topic of the thread?

Will a ground fault protected vehicle charger trip a ground fault protected outlet? And how does one differentiate between a receptacle for vehicle charging and one for any of the many other purposes that people use 50A receptacles for?
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 12:46 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NH
Posts: 919
Rewards Points: 1,775
Default

Looks like we are all installing nema 14-50 RV outlets now. More importantly, when was the last time any of us have pulled a permit to install an EV outlet? How soon before they eliminate the neutral bus terminals in Resi loadcenters?
MTW likes this.
JoeSparky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 01:44 PM   #33
Bilge Rat
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fernley, Nevada (near Reno)
Posts: 6,714
Rewards Points: 3,036
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
As a receptacle rated 250V single phase, that means that it is rated under 150V to ground.
Slightly out of context here but if the recept. was fed by the high leg of a 120/240 3Ø 4 wire ∆ system and one of the other phases, it'd be more than 150 volts to ground.
micromind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2019, 01:47 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by micromind View Post
Slightly out of context here but if the recept. was fed by the high leg of a 120/240 3Ø 4 wire ∆ system and one of the other phases, it'd be more than 150 volts to ground.
And then you wouldn't have to GFCI protect it. You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.
micromind likes this.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 10:28 AM   #35
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,345
Rewards Points: 1,656
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
And then you wouldn't have to GFCI protect it. You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.
Well you would have to gfci protect it in 2020 which is what the op was talking about.

Quote:
210.8(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (A)⁠(11) and supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Quote:
210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles supplied by single-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 50 amperes or less, and all receptacles supplied by three-phase branch circuits rated 150 volts or less to ground, 100 amperes or less, installed in the locations specified in 210.8(B)(1) through (B)(12) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 02:10 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 464
Rewards Points: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
Mike are you sure it has gfci and not gfp built in. If they are both GFCI then there should be no reason for trouble however if there is gfp in the unit and then you install a gfci then I can see a possibility of an issue since they trip at different limits

[OP] Thanks for the on-topic reply, Dennis.

The answer is, I don't know exactly what's built into the chargers. Details are not in the specs that I have access to, unless I missed something several times. The problem occurs with every brand of EVSE I've tried (about 5), several of which claim somewhere in their lit or in their support emails to have GFCI built in. If it's GFPE, that's worth knowing, I suppose, although I don't know enough about the technology itself to understand why if both are GFCI, they should work in series. I'll do some more research.

What I DO know is that with a number of different brands now, plugging their unit into a GFCI-protected outlet (various brands of breaker) causes instant trip. Going back to a normal breaker -- no problem.


One manufacturer actually specifies that the outlet must not be GFCI protected.


Whatever's in there, its function poses an obvious compliance problem.

Last edited by mikewillnot; 12-01-2019 at 02:26 PM.
mikewillnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 02:19 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 464
Rewards Points: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
Looks like we are all installing nema 14-50 RV outlets now. More importantly, when was the last time any of us have pulled a permit to install an EV outlet? How soon before they eliminate the neutral bus terminals in Resi loadcenters?

[OP] Off topic, but:
We're NOT all installing 14-50. A number of the EVSE models/brands I install come, or CAN come with, 6-50 plugs. For this application, the 14-50 is overkill and a waste of wire anyway, as none of the "level 2" chargers actually require or use a neutral. AFAIK, the only (resi) customers I interact with who can ever expect to NEED a neutral are those who might someday want to plug in an RV.


From what history I know, the origins of the EVSE industry's "standardization" on the 14-50 can be found in the early days of the Tesla Roadster, when the company determined that the best odds for finding a 240-volt outlet "in the wild" was in RV parks.


No matter, probably. I understand that technologically, Beta was actually superior to VHS.

Last edited by mikewillnot; 12-01-2019 at 02:24 PM.
mikewillnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 02:31 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 464
Rewards Points: 747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
You also wouldn't have to GFCI protect it if the customer says they are going to plug their RV into it.

I can't legally do this, as EVSE is almost all we do, and I often include the hardware with the sale, and usually/always hang it on the wall, plug it in, activate it, etc. I also specify in our agreements that our work is code compliant. What the customer "says" won't fly.
mikewillnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 02:41 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
HackWork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: N/A
Posts: 35,387
Rewards Points: 1,961
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewillnot View Post
I can't legally do this, as EVSE is almost all we do, and I often include the hardware with the sale, and usually/always hang it on the wall, plug it in, activate it, etc. I also specify in our agreements that our work is code compliant. What the customer "says" won't fly.
If you are providing the charger, why are you using the plug-in models? The only time I install those is when the customer already bought it that way. Most customers buy the hardwired model and when they ask me beforehand that is what I recommend as well.
HackWork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 03:23 PM   #40
Moderator

 
Dennis Alwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 21,345
Rewards Points: 1,656
Default

Some of those units come with a cord so short that they cannot plug into a receptacle with an in-use cover. We have been disconnecting the cord and doing a direct wire. Not sure if that is allowed but that is what we are doing.

It is literally impossible to use the 6" of cord and plug that they supply unless it is indoor.
HackWork and mikewillnot like this.
__________________
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
I can't help it if I'm lucky
Dennis Alwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com