EVSE GFCI redux - 2017 nec TIA 625.54 - Page 3 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:25 PM   #41
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If you are providing the charger, why are you using the plug-in models? The only time I install those is when the customer already bought it that way. Most customers buy the hardwired model and when they ask me beforehand that is what I recommend as well.

Good points. I guess this is where it's all going, isn't it. The only reasons I can see for a non-hardwired approach are (1) the RV scenario and (2) the possibility of an upcoming (1-2 yrs) house sale, and the desire to take the charger along.

There was one other. Manufacturers for years have floated at times the notion of charger portability -- as in, "you can take it with you on vacation, to your second home." As far as I can see, if you can afford a second home, you can afford a second charger.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:29 PM   #42
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Some of those units come with a cord so short that they cannot plug into a receptacle with an in-use cover. We have been disconnecting the cord and doing a direct wire. Not sure if that is allowed but that is what we are doing.

It is literally impossible to use the 6" of cord and plug that they supply unless it is indoor.
Code requires the cord&plug to be no more than 12". Even at the full 12" (as you mentioned) there is no way to use an outlet with an outdoor in-use cover without putting stress on the cord, plug, and outlet. I don't like it at all, and many manufacturers say that the cord&plug models are for indoor use only.

They work fine when mounting the unit indoors and orienting the outlet upsidedown underneath the charger or sideways next to the charger.

As you know, removing the cord&plug to hardwire it is against code and many chargers are not meant to be opened at all. You'd be better off just getting the hardwired model.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:36 PM   #43
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Good points. I guess this is where it's all going, isn't it. The only reasons I can see for a non-hardwired approach are (1) the RV scenario and (2) the possibility of an upcoming (1-2 yrs) house sale, and the desire to take the charger along.
I agree on your first reason. As for the second, I tell them that it is still advisable to use the hardwireable model. I explain that it's simple to disconnect the hardwired unit (I will do it for a minimal service call fee if they don't feel comfortable) and that leaving the box there with the feed will allow the next owner to connect their own charger, which is a selling point. In some areas they require new houses to be "EVSE Ready" and this is how I have seen it done, a feed going to an outdoor box. So that is how I install them, I just bring the whip into that outdoor box and splice it. I mainly install Clippercreek chargers which have the whip ready to go.

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There was one other. Manufacturers for years have floated at times the notion of charger portability -- as in, "you can take it with you on vacation, to your second home." As far as I can see, if you can afford a second home, you can afford a second charger.
I had one customer with this idea. I told them that I had to solidly mount the charger to the house and it was not ruggedized or meant to be carried around like a portable unit. Once they saw the unit and how cumbersome it was, they gave up on that idea.

If they really want to do it, I will do whatever they want.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:13 PM   #44
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More importantly, when was the last time any of us have pulled a permit to install an EV outlet?
Apparently, everyone in Canada, replete with load shedders and a load calc.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:07 PM   #45
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Good points. I guess this is where it's all going, isn't it.
I think you've been spending too much time eating those delicious Zwigles hot dogs that you have in Rochester. My wife is distantly related to them and they would occasionally send us a care package but I guess the kids run it now.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:52 PM   #46
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Some of those units come with a cord so short that they cannot plug into a receptacle with an in-use cover. We have been disconnecting the cord and doing a direct wire. Not sure if that is allowed but that is what we are doing.

It is literally impossible to use the 6" of cord and plug that they supply unless it is indoor.

That too.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:54 PM   #47
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I think you've been spending too much time eating those delicious Zwigles hot dogs that you have in Rochester. My wife is distantly related to them and they would occasionally send us a care package but I guess the kids run it now.

PM me an address and we will "rectify" that.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:01 PM   #48
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My local inspector provided me with the attached TIA, going into effect around here in February/March 2020, which states:

625.54 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. All single-phase receptacles installed for the connection of electric vehicle charging that are rated 150 volts to ground or less, and 50 amperes or less shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. [emphasis added]

This applies to receptacles only, not to hard-wired installations.

The problem is that every brand of EV charger (EVSE) that I install, both hard-wired and plug-in models, has GFCI built in. Over a number of experiments so far, when plugged into a circuit protected by a (pricey) GFCI breaker, they do not function. They REQUIRE NO GFCI.

So now what???

Attachment 138400
So if you used lets say 6/3 THHN, with a 60amp recp. You could technically ignore this code, since it is 150v or less to ground AND 50 amp or less. So just get a reading over 50 amps and you're free and clear.
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Old 01-29-2020, 08:50 PM   #49
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Mike are you sure it has gfci and not gfp built in. If they are both GFCI then there should be no reason for trouble however if there is gfp in the unit and then you install a gfci then I can see a possibility of an issue since they trip at different limits
I've learned a bit more about the difference between GFCI and GFP. Essentially, sensitivity: 5 ma fault vs 30 ma fault. I still don't understand why GFCI and GFP in series would be any more or less likely to have problems than GFCI and GFCI.

Also: I spoke to a tech at ClipperCreek today, and he explained that their unit has 20ma GFI protection built-in ... which I believe makes it Class B, which is only for swimming pool lights (HERE). He seemed to think that such a device would somehow make theirs more robust than the finicky GFCI breakers I'm using (i.e. what's available), I guess, which would somehow make mine (GFCI breaker) redundant or not necessary. I sent him the 2017 NEC TIA 17-2. They're looking into it. They're not "mine," as in something I'm throwing in for the fun of it. They're code-required.

ChargePoint includes in their installers' literature instructions to NOT connect their device to a GFCI-protected circuit. Contra to NEC, that is. So the OP problem is not my imagination. In series, they OFTEN don't play well together.

Still no solution in sight... except that I'm now steering customers hard away from 240v outlet setups, towards hard-wired. I've told several customers lately that if they want a 240-volt outlet setup I would happily refer them to another electrician. That usually gets their attention.

I also don't understand why, given the NEC requirement, EVSE manufacturers are still selling (PUSHING) units that are equipped with both an input plug and GFCI technology built-in.

Last edited by mikewillnot; 01-29-2020 at 09:02 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 01-29-2020, 09:01 PM   #50
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So if you used lets say 6/3 THHN, with a 60amp recp. You could technically ignore this code, since it is 150v or less to ground AND 50 amp or less. So just get a reading over 50 amps and you're free and clear.

No residential level2 EVSE comes equipped with a 60-amp plug. They're generally either NEMA 6-50 or 14-50. Also, on the one or two occasions I've tried, NO ONE locally stocks 60-amp receptacles.

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Old 01-30-2020, 06:36 AM   #51
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I just looked, since this thread started I have installed 9 car chargers. All 9 of them were hardwired. No one asked for a plug-in model to be installed. They are not very common, my take is that the plug-in chargers are just a way for the charger manufacturers to sell their products to people who already have a 50A outlet.

And yes, I know that these are not actually "chargers" as that is built into the vehicle, but that is what we all call them.
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Old 01-31-2020, 08:00 AM   #52
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my take is that the plug-in chargers are just a way for the charger manufacturers to sell their products to people who already have a 50A outlet.
Who has a 50-amp outlet in their *garage*? (Other than some RV owners?)

Two weeks back, installed what may be my last 1450 outlet, in a garage for a Porsche Taycan -- @$200k -- that came with an extremely over-engineered plug-in charger with wifi and lots of programmability and communications functionality, set up for a 1450 outlet -- like most stock car chargers seem to be. It's not just that nearly all aftermarket wall chargers are based on the 1450 (hard-wired models available); the CAR industry is "standardizing" on 1450. So I have to address this GFCI question on almost every sale. Unless they're already away from the plug-in approach, as with the Tesla HPWC (hardwired only).

And I know there are trade-offs, regardless, that we talk about. E.g., if it were MY stock charger, it would live in the 1450 outlet normally, and when I go away on any kind of trip I'd forget to pack it and wind up somewhere wishing I had it.

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Old 01-31-2020, 08:08 AM   #53
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Who has a 50-amp outlet in their *garage*? (Other than some RV owners?)
Many people have 50A outlets in their garage or driveway for RVs as well as welders and electric vehicles.

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Two weeks back, installed what may be my last 1450 outlet, in a garage for a Porsche Taycan -- @$200k -- that came with an extremely over-engineered plug-in charger with wifi and lots of programmability and communications functionality, set up for a 1450 outlet -- like most stock car chargers seem to be. It's not just that nearly all aftermarket wall chargers are based on the 1450 (hard-wired models available); the CAR industry is "standardizing" on 1450. So I have to address this GFCI question on almost every sale. Unless I can move them away from the plug-in approach.
I don't see this at all, it's the exact opposite for me, as I posted.

A couple years ago when speaking directly with a higher level Clippercreek tech about how the cord&plug does not work with an in-use cover and asked how he recommend I install it, he literally told me that if I was installing new wiring/box that I should definitely use the hardwired model.

Last edited by HackWork; 01-31-2020 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 02-01-2020, 08:03 PM   #54
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I raised the issue with ClipperCreek, and they have modified their recommendations policy, to hardwired except when grandfathered:
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Our recommendation for customers and installers would be to use a hardwired EVSE when purchasing and installing with new wiring and infrastructure. If the customer has a 240V outlet already installed in compliance with NEC code at the time (prior to requiring a GFCI) and would like to purchase an EVSE, we could recommend a plug type charging station (ideally for indoor use only).

They also said something interesting about GFCI breakers:

Quote:
I would encourage you to look into Class B GFCI breakers as they have a 20 mA threshold compared to Class A with a 5 mA trip point. From my reading into the NEC and recent changes, I can’t see anything that would consider this a code violation. A breaker with a 20 mA trip point should work perfectly with ClipperCreek EVSE’s as we test every unit and make sure that they trip the internal CCID when the current leakage is in the range of 16mA to 19mA.
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