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Old 03-04-2018, 11:34 AM   #1
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Default Homework question that I got wrong? Hmm...

Had a homework question last week that I got wrong, and for the life of me I cannot even fathom the idea as to how I got it wrong. The teacher tried to explain to me but I just simply will never understand his reasoning. To me I am 100% right and I just cannot even begin to understand why it's wrong.

Question: A building or structure shall be supplied by a maximum of ___ service(s).
A. one
B. two
C. three
D. as many as directed.

Teacher says answer is A... I say the answer is D.

Code reference is 230.2:
"A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).
(A) Special Conditions: Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3)...etc.... (4) etc... etc... etc..."

So with that said, when the question says what is the maximum, the MAXIMUM CAN'T BE ONE!!?!? There are exceptions that permit many more services to be added under many conditions so the answer would be AS MANY AS DIRECTED...?

How am I thinking about this in the wrong way? I debated with him for 20 minutes in class before giving up. My mind is blown. I just want to know how I got it wrong, it is almost beyond my capability to understand but I'll try. I'm open minded lol

Last edited by JasonCo; 03-04-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:41 AM   #2
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Your instructor wanted the best answer. The rule is one & all the rest are exceptions. Same rule applies to test taking.
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:41 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCo View Post
Had a homework question last week that I got wrong, and for the life of me I cannot even fathom the idea as to how I got it wrong. The teacher tried to explain to me but I just simply will never understand his reasoning. To me I am 100% right and I just cannot even begin to understand why it's wrong.

Question: A building or structure shall be supplied by a maximum of ___ service(s).
A. one
B. two
C. three
D. as many as directed.

Teacher says answer is A... I say the answer is D.

Code reference is 230.2:
"A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).
(A) Special Conditions: Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3)...etc.... (4) etc... etc... etc..."

So with that said, when the question says what is the maximum, the MAXIMUM CAN'T BE ONE!!?!? There are exceptions that permit many more services to be added under many conditions so the answer would be AS MANY AS DIRECTED...?

How am I thinking about this in the wrong way? I debated with him for 20 minutes in class before giving up. My mind is blown. I just want to know how I got it wrong, it is almost beyond my capability to understand but I'll try. I'm open minded lol
The NEC isn't a fire pump code. It isn't a security system code, it isn't an emergency system code. The question is based on the NEC, so what is the maximum number of services allowed by the NEC, ignoring the requirements of other codes?
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCo View Post
Had a homework question last week that I got wrong, and for the life of me I cannot even fathom the idea as to how I got it wrong. The teacher tried to explain to me but I just simply will never understand his reasoning. To me I am 100% right and I just cannot even begin to understand why it's wrong.

Question: A building or structure shall be supplied by a maximum of ___ service(s).
A. one
B. two
C. three
D. as many as directed.

Teacher says answer is A... I say the answer is D.

Code reference is 230.2:
"A building or other structure served shall be supplied by only one service unless permitted in 230.2(A) through (D).
(A) Special Conditions: Additional services shall be permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3)...etc.... (4) etc... etc... etc..."

So with that said, when the question says what is the maximum, the MAXIMUM CAN'T BE ONE!!?!? There are exceptions that permit many more services to be added under many conditions so the answer would be AS MANY AS DIRECTED...?

How am I thinking about this in the wrong way? I debated with him for 20 minutes in class before giving up. My mind is blown. I just want to know how I got it wrong, it is almost beyond my capability to understand but I'll try. I'm open minded lol
You are absolutely correct. Your teacher is wrong

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Old 03-04-2018, 11:49 AM   #5
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By convention the answer is One.

"As many as directed" is obviously wrong since the extra Services are dictated by the very list you've cited.

The owner or arch is not permitted to specify how many Services he wants for his building.

He just gets the One ... plus those specified by the NEC.

By exception only, you may run across double Services for a single building:

I once had to install a 480Y277 Service for an existing grocer that had a 208Y120 Service at the other end of the building. What had happened is that the store was being massively expanded. The Poco was willing to do this -- but specified that a cross linking shunt-trip circuit be installed so that Emergency Responders could kill power to both by walking up to either end of the grocery store.

Yes, it's a poorly worded question.

Just stop getting your undies in a wad over any poorly worded question.

Doing so does not help your cause.

You're aiming your emotional energy in the wrong direction.

BTW, you don't want perfect scores... nor do you want Perfectionism.

It's a ruinous trait. It, perfectionism, will just make you suffer.

A Perfectionist is one who takes great pains -- and gives them to others.

Really.
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
By convention the answer is One.

"As many as directed" is obviously wrong since the extra Services are dictated by the very list you've cited.

The owner or arch is not permitted to specify how many Services he wants for his building.

He just gets the One ... plus those specified by the NEC.

By exception only, you may run across double Services for a single building:

I once had to install a 480Y277 Service for an existing grocer that had a 208Y120 Service at the other end of the building. What had happened is that the store was being massively expanded. The Poco was willing to do this -- but specified that a cross linking shunt-trip circuit be installed so that Emergency Responders could kill power to both by walking up to either end of the grocery store.

Yes, it's a poorly worded question.

Just stop getting your undies in a wad over any poorly worded question.

Doing so does not help your cause.

You're aiming your emotional energy in the wrong direction.

BTW, you don't want perfect scores... nor do you want Perfectionism.

It's a ruinous trait. It, perfectionism, will just make you suffer.

A Perfectionist is one who takes great pains -- and gives them to others.

Really.
Hah you have a good point there. Bad question

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Old 03-04-2018, 12:02 PM   #7
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I am not an electrician. With that out of the way, I am a stickler for details, and according to what you posted, my OPINION is that the answer is D. I would chalk this up to a poorly worded question - the instructor is basing his answer on what he thinks the question means, not what the question actually says.

When my son was in 5th grade his math test included a question that read "describe how you would solve...". He described how to solve the problem, but the teacher took points off for not actually solving the problem. Repeated conversations with the teacher resulted in the teacher changing his grade without admitting any fault on her part. I found this even more frustrating because I failed to make the teacher understand that she was wrong. Six years later I'm still talking about it.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:04 PM   #8
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If the question was worded "A building or structure SHOULD be supplied by a maximum of __ services". I'd have a better understanding as to the answer maybe being ONE. But the question says "SHALL", which opens up the doors to exceptions and special permissions that allow way more than one. You can't have a maximum of one service if there are exceptions and special permissions that allow 15 more in a building... You can't just ignore these things in the codebook. D: As many as directed is the perfect answer for that question lol. The way the question is worded means it's impossible for the answer to be A: One

Edit: Also wanted to say to tesla that my undies aren't in a wad haha. I'm not as frustrated as I might make it out to be. I just find this extremely interesting to debate and if I'm wrong on my thinking, I need to correct myself so I can pass that J test!

Also, wanted to thank everyone for chapping in on this thread! Really appreciate it

Last edited by JasonCo; 03-04-2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telsa View Post
A Perfectionist is one who takes great pains -- and gives them to others.

Really.
You posted this while I was writing my own post, so I hadn't seen it yet. I haven't heard it said that way, bu what you say is very true, and I do try to keep that in mind when the situation arises.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:15 PM   #10
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the instructor was correctly pointing out that the answer is one, unless there is an exception to the rule.

Unfortunately for you, if you continue thinking that you are right in your need for exactitude, you will likely be getting failing scores on licensing tests. The herd needs to be drilled to the fact that one is the general answer, and that is often the point of the question in licensing tests. Of course, you will also be given a few "trick questions" that point to the exception, and you need to sniff out the difference between those and the herd questions (dooable, but not always the easiest task).

If you don't align your thinking to the herd, you will not obtain the results you want when you test, regardless of your perceived notion of exactitude.

as always, just my .02. your results may vary.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:21 PM   #11
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the instructor was correctly pointing out that the answer is one, unless there is an exception to the rule.
This is where I am extremely confused. So you are telling me to ignore the exceptions to the rule? Like I just don't understand, how could you possibly ignore exceptions and special permissions in the code book.

When the question says SHALL have a maximum of __ services, and the codebook says there is many exceptions and permissions that allow way more than one. Then a maximum of one is just impossible? Why do you want me to ignore the exceptions and special permissions. This is where my mind is blown at, I'm soooooooooooo confused..

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Old 03-04-2018, 12:22 PM   #12
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In every class, in every semester, there will always be one ore more type-o's in the textbook, wrong comments from the instruction, and terribly worded questions on tests. It's part of the gig. It prepares you for real life; for things like when your boss asks you to do something then later swears he didn't tell you to do that or the company is doing something dumb and you just play along.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:25 PM   #13
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In every class, in every semester, there will always be one ore more type-o's in the textbook, wrong comments from the instruction, and terribly worded questions on tests. It's part of the gig. It prepares you for real life; for things like when your boss asks you to do something then later swears he didn't tell you to do that or the company is doing something dumb and you just play along.
Yeah haha that's a good way of looking at it. He's doing it on purpose to prepare me for the real world where I have to put up with mental bosses.
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Old 03-04-2018, 12:25 PM   #14
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Student is right.

Teacher is wrong.

Happens all the time.


Just remember which wrong answer to select when it comes up on a test.


I remember being in school where in 3 different classes we would have 3 different answers to the exact same question. You'd have to remember which professor you were dealing with when the subject came up.

You're a better student than the teacher is a teacher. That happens all the time too.

You'll do great in school and in your profession. Keep up the good work.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:11 PM   #15
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Your answer is incorrect. Really think about the context of the question and your answer. D is wrong because the code does not state "shall as many as directed."

The keyword in this question is shall. Lookup 90.5a and b. Shall is a mandatory rule, while b is a permissive rule.
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Old 03-05-2018, 09:20 PM   #16
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We were taught the answer WITHOUT exceptions.

But you teacher is being a bit of a weenie by not understanding your point or to have previously stated something about exceptions.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:04 PM   #17
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"As directed by" WHO? The code? The engineer? The inspector? The homeowner? The guy on the sidewalk laying in his own vomit? Just who is the "director of panels"?
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