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Old 01-14-2017, 08:41 PM   #1
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Default Lotus style lights are against code

The Lotus style lights were brought into a contractor association meeting this week.

Three different local municipal inspectors all agreed that they are against code because the junction box needs to be mounted. They also didn't like the way the drywall would be damaged if you have to remove the light (something a few of you guys here have mentioned).

Discuss.

FWIW, I have often put floating junction boxes in the ceiling above high hats in malls and other commercial jobs and it was always allowed. Maybe against code but not enforced?
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:25 PM   #2
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It's something I have thought about, code compliance of an unsecured box, but inspectors here don't complain. Some of the knockoffs have mounting holes in the JB.

I wish they would make a high wattage driver so you could just run thermostat wire to the fixtures from a central location like we do with under cabinet lighting.

If you damage drywall removing the fixture you have worse manual dexterity than me and I'm pathetic. It sounds like you're dealing with old curmudgeons who are resistant to progress.
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Old 01-14-2017, 09:29 PM   #3
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Did your inspectors roll out their new online permitting system or are you still waiting in line for an hour? If they're analyzing Lotus Lights, I think they have their priorities screwed up.

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Old 01-14-2017, 10:12 PM   #4
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The inspectors are members of the association. Inspectors don't make up NJ state law.

Back to the Lotus's, they sell low voltage extensions, I thought you could go up to 40' with them? That should be enough to mount the drivers in a central location.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:17 PM   #5
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The inspectors are members of the association. Inspectors don't make up NJ state law.

Back to the Lotus's, they sell low voltage extensions, I thought you could go up to 40' with them? That should be enough to mount the drivers in a central location.
But I'm saying a high wattage driver that could do numerous fixtures.
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:18 PM   #6
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But I'm saying a high wattage driver that could do numerous fixtures.
Gotcha. I'm sure they could, but maybe they just don't see the need. Having the separate drivers is more flexible.

What benefit would a single driver give you other than a little less wiring?
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:23 PM   #7
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Gotcha. I'm sure they could, but maybe they just don't see the need. Having the separate drivers is more flexible.

What benefit would a single driver give you other than a little less wiring?
It would save time and the driver could be put in a more accessible place. I have put Lotus drivers in thermal insulation. They say it's okay but I don't like it. Also, in your case, the driver could be fastened down properly.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
The Lotus style lights were brought into a contractor association meeting this week.

Three different local municipal inspectors all agreed that they are against code because the junction box needs to be mounted. They also didn't like the way the drywall would be damaged if you have to remove the light (something a few of you guys here have mentioned).

Discuss.

FWIW, I have often put floating junction boxes in the ceiling above high hats in malls and other commercial jobs and it was always allowed. Maybe against code but not enforced?

Here is my take. A halo remodel recess can has a bar connecting the j-box to the can and the side clips hold the whole thing in place in the drywall cut out, but noplace is there any ''mounting'' going on. Those cans are sold and installed by the millions.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:50 AM   #9
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Here is my take. A halo remodel recess can has a bar connecting the j-box to the can and the side clips hold the whole thing in place in the drywall cut out, but noplace is there any ''mounting'' going on. Those cans are sold and installed by the millions.
Just so.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:59 AM   #10
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Don't worry, all it will take is a few rounds of drinks and a hooker or two at the next East Coast Chapter International Association of Electrical Inspectors Convention Meeting to sway favor to Lotus Lights. Maybe a brown paper envelope or two as well. It's all in Lotus Lights Corporation's ball park now.................
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Old 01-15-2017, 03:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HackWork View Post
The Lotus style lights were brought into a contractor association meeting this week.

Three different local municipal inspectors all agreed that they are against code because the junction box needs to be mounted. They also didn't like the way the drywall would be damaged if you have to remove the light (something a few of you guys here have mentioned).

Discuss.

FWIW, I have often put floating junction boxes in the ceiling above high hats in malls and other commercial jobs and it was always allowed. Maybe against code but not enforced?

You New Jersey contractors should know by now you always should be flying in macmikeman to handle the amateur electrical inspectors in the state during such code meetings. (for a small reasonable fee of course)
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:14 AM   #12
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That junction box is part of a UL listed luminaire.

The instructions specifically say NOT to mount the box to anything.

Quote:
CERTIFICATION: cETLus. Conforms to UL STD. 1598. Certified to CSA STD. C22.2 NO. 250.0
Quote:
CONNECTING THE DRIVER:
Open the cover of the junction box. Push and remove one of the half-inch knockouts on the side plate. Install standard L16
cable connector. Use double connector for daisy chaining multiple drivers. Insert line voltage feed into the cable connector
and splice same colour wires using wire nuts. Close the cover. Connect the driver to the light fixture – the arrows on the
male and female parts of the connector between the driver and the fixture should match. Tighten the connector by hand.
Do not attach the junction box to anything so you can pull it through the ceiling opening in case you need to service the
driver in future.
Also,

Quote:
110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use
of Equipment.


(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment
shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions
included in the listing or labeling.
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:23 AM   #13
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A shame there was no 110.3B for this unsecured buried octagon that took us hours to find under a fan & ceiling medallion



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Old 01-15-2017, 08:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Gotcha. I'm sure they could, but maybe they just don't see the need. Having the separate drivers is more flexible.

What benefit would a single driver give you other than a little less wiring?
I agree, it's just inefficient putting a bunch of small power supplies in rather than one central power supply.

LED lighting manufacturers don't want it to be efficient, they would rather sell lots of small power supplies than one big one.

They also don't want to make the low voltage cable generic if possible, better to sell you a proprietary cable if they can.

With a centralized power supply you're ahead the day it's installed, but when you have to do maintenance and troubleshooting when the power supplies start to die in ten years, you're way - way ahead.

(I am betting that the bite in the ass with LED lighting is that although the lamps last forever, the power supplies don't. IME with DC power supplies, only the really good ones don't fade over years of use, I seriously doubt the ones used for LED drivers are really good ones.)
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
Here is my take. A halo remodel recess can has a bar connecting the j-box to the can and the side clips hold the whole thing in place in the drywall cut out, but noplace is there any ''mounting'' going on. Those cans are sold and installed by the millions.
Are you talking about that pliable arm that detaches during installation?
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barjack View Post
That junction box is part of a UL listed luminaire.

The instructions specifically say NOT to mount the box to anything.
There it is. It's not field wiring, it's part of the fixture. That's the loophole, if you want to call it that.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:11 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
A shame there was no 110.3B for this unsecured buried octagon that took us hours to find under a fan & ceiling medallion



~CS~
In an older home always check under the fans, normally some scab installed them.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splatz View Post
I agree, it's just inefficient putting a bunch of small power supplies in rather than one central power supply.

LED lighting manufacturers don't want it to be efficient, they would rather sell lots of small power supplies than one big one.

They also don't want to make the low voltage cable generic if possible, better to sell you a proprietary cable if they can.

With a centralized power supply you're ahead the day it's installed, but when you have to do maintenance and troubleshooting when the power supplies start to die in ten years, you're way - way ahead.

(I am betting that the bite in the ass with LED lighting is that although the lamps last forever, the power supplies don't. IME with DC power supplies, only the really good ones don't fade over years of use, I seriously doubt the ones used for LED drivers are really good ones.)
Excellent points.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:14 AM   #19
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Maybe my viewpoint is skewed but if demoing an area if I pulled out an old work can and it didn't have a jbox tail I'd figure to pull out more romex as it's just further back in the hole.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:17 AM   #20
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It seems like manufacturers have been in such a rush to copy Lotus that they haven't thought of improving or changing anything.
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