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Old 03-14-2010, 03:34 PM   #1
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Default Pool wiring, UF ???Hot tubs, romex ???

I recently lost an estimate out to another contractor in the Poconos that wires A/G pools in UF wire. tIt was claimed that he local stroud township inspector approves of this method, the breakdown given to me by another local was that since the bare ground is inside a cable this method is acceptable. I tend to disagree, am I old fashioned or is it acceptable? The same i have come across for hot tubs and the use of romex with an uninsulated ground.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:11 PM   #2
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You are right and the others are totally wrong! Even the inspectors.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:34 PM   #3
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It is acceptable to use three wire UF/NMB and re-identify the unused insulated conductor as the ground.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:51 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Selectric View Post
It is acceptable to use three wire UF/NMB and re-identify the unused insulated conductor as the ground.
I've used 12/3 nm b in that fashion for rare a/g pool jobs where conduit fitting to the panel inside the home is impractical or impossible prior to ent on the market, as for the uf part, the old timers ran gal and my generation pvc to this date. A misunderstanding my bosses had in the 80's was running 12/3 to a jacuzzi. Now you have these guys using 3 wire romex and UF to feed 120/240 volt loads on hot tubs. That I feel is a violation
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:51 PM   #5
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It is acceptable to use three wire UF/NMB and re-identify the unused insulated conductor as the ground.
Nope.

See NEC 250.119
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:59 PM   #6
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Now here's one I came across a few years back, a I/G pool, pump built in custom room behind attached garage, 12/2 romex . I don't exactly believe conduit is necessary since it's not incorporated with the light circuit, but an insulated ground is a must, am I correct to this point?
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:03 PM   #7
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Article 680.21 (A) & (B) covers this;

The use of UF cable for an above ground pool will depend on 2 things. If the pump is double insulated AND not tied to the equipotential bond then uf is ok. If the pump is double insulated AND tied to the equipotential bond OR the pump is NOT double insulated then the use of UF is not OK.
Either way any chapter 3 wiring method may be used on the interior of a dwelling. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor is allowed to be uninsulated as long as it is enclosed by the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

Here is a link to a download from Mike Holt that covers Article 680.
Worth the ink to print it out as a reference.

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....y&letterID=802
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:10 PM   #8
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Now here's one I came across a few years back, a I/G pool, pump built in custom room behind attached garage, 12/2 romex . I don't exactly believe conduit is necessary since it's not incorporated with the light circuit, but an insulated ground is a must, am I correct to this point?
I agree with Manchester on this one. This IMO would be considered interior wiring, as long as this is a one family dwelling.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:19 PM   #9
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Nope.

See NEC 250.119

Unless you go back to 1984. (perhaps even earlier)
680-25(C)-
"Motors-Pool associated motors SHALL be connected to an equipment grounding conductor sized in accordance with Table 250-95 but not smaller than NO.12. It SHALL be an INSULATED copper conductor and SHALL be installed WITH the circuit conductors in rigid metal conduit,Intermediate metal conduit or rigid nonmetallic conduit."

Things have changed,but,the ground conductor still MUST be a min,#12 Insulated copper conductor. Outside.
years ago you could not splice the EGC.Hence pipe the whole way.
Now INSIDE,yes you can run an uninsulated ground.

Last edited by leland; 03-14-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manchestersparky View Post
Article 680.21 (A) & (B) covers this;

The use of UF cable for an above ground pool will depend on 2 things. If the pump is double insulated AND not tied to the equipotential bond then uf is ok. If the pump is double insulated AND tied to the equipotential bond OR the pump is NOT double insulated then the use of UF is not OK.
Either way any chapter 3 wiring method may be used on the interior of a dwelling. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor is allowed to be uninsulated as long as it is enclosed by the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

Here is a link to a download from Mike Holt that covers Article 680.
Worth the ink to print it out as a reference.

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....y&letterID=802
Thanks for the reply, I'll still feel better about an insulated ground on my jobs only for the reason that the equipment fed does not discharge water after every use and the bare equipment grounds in device and panel boxes. $20 never killed me before. As for the aboveground metal frame pools, those are what i was refering to. Bonding . UF I would find acceptable for smaller framed seasonal and air pools with those "pulse" pumps.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:16 AM   #11
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Interesting post IMO. I have never wired an in ground pool but I now realize the last two above ground pools that i wired may have been done wrong. Both were smaller pools with plug in units so i ran 12-2 UF in conduit to a 4"X4" PT post with an outdoor box/recepticle that was GFCI breaker protected. I installed the "bubble" cover on the outdoor box for least amount of water intrusion when the pool was plugged in. My inspector has never had an issue when i installed this type of power source in someones yard but i never had him inspect one for a pool. I will be giving him a call now as i am curious of what he will say.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:38 AM   #12
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Both were smaller pools with plug in units so i ran 12-2 UF in conduit to a 4"X4" PT post with an outdoor box/recepticle that was GFCI breaker protected. I installed the "bubble" cover on the outdoor box for least amount of water intrusion when the pool was plugged in. My inspector has never had an issue when i installed this type of power source in someones yard but i never had him inspect one for a pool.
It would not be the first time an inspector didn't know the codes.

I know there are not a lot of pools in the Adirondacks so it is not unheard of that inspectors are not up on pool codes, but UF ran to a pool motor is a pretty obvious violation.
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Old 03-21-2010, 10:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manchestersparky View Post
Article 680.21 (A) & (B) covers this;

The use of UF cable for an above ground pool will depend on 2 things. If the pump is double insulated AND not tied to the equipotential bond then uf is ok. If the pump is double insulated AND tied to the equipotential bond OR the pump is NOT double insulated then the use of UF is not OK.
Either way any chapter 3 wiring method may be used on the interior of a dwelling. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor is allowed to be uninsulated as long as it is enclosed by the outer sheath of the cable assembly.

Here is a link to a download from Mike Holt that covers Article 680.
Worth the ink to print it out as a reference.

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters....y&letterID=802

That's interesting. But wiring underground with UF is just not a good idea. That wire is going to fail at some point - wether it be 10, 15, or 20 years from now - it will fail. With PVC conduit that is less likely to happen and if the wires do fail pulling new ones shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 03-21-2010, 11:22 AM   #14
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It would not be the first time an inspector didn't know the codes.

I know there are not a lot of pools in the Adirondacks so it is not unheard of that inspectors are not up on pool codes, but UF ran to a pool motor is a pretty obvious violation.
Thanks, i will be calling my inspector in the morning. Hard to say if he even knows but being in conduit i can pull all the wire and make it right. I have noticed that my Inspector doesnt always have the answer, i stumped him on a grounding issue the other day with an issue of a dis-connect, transfer switch, main panel and sub panel. He was suppose to call his boss for the answer so i will ask about this when i talk to him.
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Old 03-21-2010, 11:43 AM   #15
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Who do you use up there now (if I may ask)?
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:21 PM   #16
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That's interesting. But wiring underground with UF is just not a good idea. That wire is going to fail at some point - wether it be 10, 15, or 20 years from now - it will fail. With PVC conduit that is less likely to happen and if the wires do fail pulling new ones shouldn't be an issue.
I fully agree, I wire landscape lighting, residential post lights, etc, in PVC. Can't remember the last time I purchased UF. UF wire is for the simple and dyi's.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:21 PM   #17
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I fully agree, I wire landscape lighting, residential post lights, etc, in PVC. Can't remember the last time I purchased UF. UF wire is for the simple and dyi's.
Not so fast there Shockdoc. Uf is great for kitchen islands on slab on grade. I run a pvc sleeve conduit from one of the partition walls, pull uf off the kit gfi receptacle outlet on a counter, run it thru the buried pvc over to the island, route under the toe kick, and fish from there up to the island outlet(s). Makes that a simple process.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:31 PM   #18
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Not so fast there Shockdoc. Uf is great for kitchen islands on slab on grade. I run a pvc sleeve conduit from one of the partition walls, pull uf off the kit gfi receptacle outlet on a counter, run it thru the buried pvc over to the island, route under the toe kick, and fish from there up to the island outlet(s). Makes that a simple process.
Yea there are alot of uses for UF wire.

I use alot of it around here inside houses that are technical below flood elevation.

Wet and damp locations are not only in the ground
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:53 PM   #19
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Not so fast there Shockdoc. Uf is great for kitchen islands on slab on grade. I run a pvc sleeve conduit from one of the partition walls, pull uf off the kit gfi receptacle outlet on a counter, run it thru the buried pvc over to the island, route under the toe kick, and fish from there up to the island outlet(s). Makes that a simple process.
You got me there, let me rephrase, Direct Burial is for the simple and do it yourselfer.
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:55 PM   #20
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You got me there, let me rephrase, Direct Burial is for the simple and do it yourselfer.
That I agree with
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