Stray voltage on heatsink..Eurilight ET8 1150H - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Forum > General Electrical Discussion > Recalls, Safety Notices and References


Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-2016, 12:59 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default Stray voltage on heatsink..Eurilight ET8 1150H

My facility is in the process of replacing the fluorescent T8's with Eurilight ET8-1150H's. While doing some energy and RF testing I found that the aluminum heatsink, which runs the entire length of the tube, was carrying voltage.

I have found voltages in various fixtures from ~20VAC all the way to 277VAC (in 277 configuration) and similar results in ballasted configuration. Voltage is being measured between the heatsink and the luminaire's metal frame.

The tubes display the same results whether in opposite end fed or same end fed configurations, typical of a hybrid. The tubes have similar results when put directly into ballasted single or double configurations. I have more testing (sample size) to do on the ballasted ones, but I am quite dismayed by what I am finding so far.

This cannot be right. This is exposed and should be at ground potential. I have never come across a piece of equipment which had (by design) exposed metal at line potential.

I am having an email discussion with someone who is relaying for an engineer. They want video...I am thinking of punctuating the meter test with a lightbulb connected between the heatsink and the frame.

Comments?
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-17-2016, 01:30 AM   #2
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,244
Rewards Points: 16,847
Default

Use a wiggy next time.
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 01:40 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Wiggy or Fluke, same result.

Oh, except at the output of the ballast. Fluke (43) wins there since the Wiggies usually have too low impedance.

I'm...glad you like my other avatar...?
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-17-2016, 02:03 AM   #4
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,244
Rewards Points: 16,847
Default

In best Indian Accent (dot) : I like a lot of things........
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 02:17 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Yah, I get that...I guess...not really sure where you are going with that...

I save the rhetoric for the Controversial Talk section.

I was looking for electricians who could help.

Thanks anyway.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 02:24 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
Use a wiggy next time.
Oh, I see. You got that from my Disqus account. Yeah, I use a different avatar there.

Still...not sure why you went to all that trouble.

The Indian accent has me confused though.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 02:40 AM   #7
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,244
Rewards Points: 16,847
Default

Was no trouble at all, rather accidental actually. Surfers rule
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 08:40 AM   #8
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,885
Rewards Points: 1,360
Default

So, there is a real voltage there and not just ghost? Can it power a load? Have you had a helper touch it?
RePhase277 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 09:05 AM   #9
Band Member
 
emtnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 5,919
Rewards Points: 1,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba_pete View Post

I have found voltages in various fixtures from ~20VAC all the way to 277VAC (in 277 configuration) and similar results in ballasted configuration. Voltage is being measured between the heatsink and the luminaire's metal frame.

The varying voltage does suggest induced voltage

This cannot be right.
You betcha !

I am having an email discussion with someone who is relaying for an engineer. They want video...I am thinking of punctuating the meter test with a lightbulb connected between the heatsink and the frame.
If it does light up, it's real power .... Post the video here !
Comments?
__________
__________________
_____________________________________
Your Mother was a hamster, and your father smells of Elderberries. ... Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
emtnut is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 09:15 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
theJcK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Western NC
Posts: 712
Rewards Points: 256
Default

I second that. Im interested in see your findings as well.
theJcK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 09:15 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 1,453
Rewards Points: 2,020
Default

it doesn't seems ok but same problem that can happen with any led fixture that have a metal heatsink.
oliquir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 11:35 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliquir View Post
it doesn't seems ok but same problem that can happen with any led fixture that have a metal heatsink.
???

Really?

Why is that? Why would a manufacturer/designer do such a thing?

Down here in the U.S., I would start with specifically referring to the NEC :

410.5 Live Parts.
Luminaires, portable luminaires, lampholders, and lamps shall have no live parts normally exposed to contact.
I assume that the CEC has a similar code section.
In one scenario I can imagine, a store owner puts these T8's in their display cases where the customer could easily be shocked by them. It just seems so ludicrous.

__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 11:42 AM   #13
Senile Member
 
macmikeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 27,244
Rewards Points: 16,847
Default

I still say it is your meter, cause there is an overcorrect device that is going to be noticing the issue, or else probably some smoke coming out of something or another.
__________________
Just days before China unveiled a nuclear weapon that can "strike the US within 30 minutes with ten warheads" as part of a giant military parade, US Major General Lori Reynolds announced she's declaring "diversity" is a "warfighting necessity" which will help America defeat the more homogeneous nations of China and Russia.
macmikeman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 12:31 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by InPhase277 View Post
So, there is a real voltage there and not just ghost? Can it power a load? Have you had a helper touch it?
Well, yeah...there is real voltage there.

I can light a bulb between the heatsink and grounded parts of the luminaire.

No live subjects, yet.
brian john likes this.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 12:34 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macmikeman View Post
I still say it is your meter, cause there is an overcorrect device that is going to be noticing the issue, or else probably some smoke coming out of something or another.
The heatsink is not bonded, so it's an exposed terminal. It doesn't pop any breakers that way.

When I conducted the test with a light bulb it only worked for a second, then the unintended path in the tube's SMPS went to sh!t in a loud/magic-smoke-release kind of way.

Very exciting.

This brand/model of tube is hazardous.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 01:58 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theJcK View Post
I second that. Im interested in see your findings as well.
Here are some of my test results:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are just initial findings. I haven't compiled a table for the ballasted fixture tests yet. I am finding similar conditions there, just at the driven frequency from the ballast.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 03:29 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Bird dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: South East US
Posts: 5,166
Rewards Points: 98
Default

I think you said heat sink wasn't bonded(bad design imho). I guess what you really need to prove is touch potential. FWIW quick fix/ temporary fix run bond jumper?
Bird dog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 03:37 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 1,453
Rewards Points: 2,020
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba_pete View Post
???

Really?

Why is that? Why would a manufacturer/designer do such a thing?

Down here in the U.S., I would start with specifically referring to the NEC :

410.5 Live Parts.
Luminaires, portable luminaires, lampholders, and lamps shall have no live parts normally exposed to contact.
I assume that the CEC has a similar code section.
In one scenario I can imagine, a store owner puts these T8's in their display cases where the customer could easily be shocked by them. It just seems so ludicrous.

i said that because most of led bulbs doesnt have ground pin so we cant ground them, but the heasinks are supposed to be floating, if you have voltage on it it is defective.
oliquir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 03:46 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
cuba_pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,541
Rewards Points: 2,813
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliquir View Post
I said that because most of led bulbs doesnt have ground pin so we cant ground them, but the heatsinks are supposed to be floating, if you have voltage on it it is defective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird dog View Post
I think you said heat sink wasn't bonded(bad design imho). I guess what you really need to prove is touch potential. FWIW quick fix/ temporary fix run bond jumper?
Touch potential has been proven on my part.

When I bonded it the magic smoke got out.

This isn't phantom voltage, it's just a bad design.

I will be reverse engineering the SMPS inside the tube, if not for my own curiosity, then to better report it to my safety department as to the root cause. My guess is that the negative side of the power supply's output is supposed to be floating. Since the LED assembly is mounted to an external heat sink it presents an issue.
brian john likes this.
__________________
Troll in Training
cuba_pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2016, 03:53 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: So.Cal.
Posts: 3,642
Rewards Points: 7,223
Default

Was the fixture made in China?
joebanana is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
stray voltage

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stray voltage on heatsink cuba_pete Lighting Design 38 03-05-2016 08:16 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com