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Old 11-21-2018, 10:19 AM   #21
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I worked in industrial electrical distribution for 20+years. We would have LOTO's maybe a 1/2 mile or more from where the work was being preformed.
Working for large companies they have safety departments that would come up with safety procedures that sadisfied OSHA and then some. Most of the LOTO procedures that I have worked under were not electrician friendel.They written for operations ot mechanical trades.

The last LOTO system was a paper LOTO. I could not hang a lock I could only hang a tag . If a worker wanted to hang a individual lock they could only after I hung a tag with a ty-rap that would withstand 50 pounds. I was a LOTO owner and I had certain procedure that I could pull tags that were department tags after the LOTO was cleared . For the most part it was a good system .
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:05 PM   #22
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That’s actually in OSHA subchapter S, “when required”. So when is it required? If the line can contain hazardous voltage. It’s pretty much automatic on shielded medium voltage and overhead lines. But for example I was working on a motor about 50 feet from a drive with both drives in the same conduit. Once I isolated both ends and shorted the leads I had about 70-100 VAC induced from a 25 HP drive. Granted current is negligible but it was enough I could feel it.

OSHA has a lot of LOTO procedures not just one. Construction is in 1926, tags required but locks are optional. Subchapter J is the general maintenance one for knuckle draggers (mechanics). It requires locks but not tags. Subchapter O is for Neanderthals (operators). It doesn’t even require a disconnect, just a procedure if it is “equivalent “ so control lockouts or even just a warning tag is acceptable. Subchapter S is for utilization electricians. It is a mixture of a a simplified adaptation of 70E and NEC from the 1980s. 1910.269 is for generation, transmission, and distribution and has four different LOTO procedures including one that has no locks or really anything but an honor system (“clearance”). So there really is no one “lockout” under OSHA.

NEC requires a lockable disconnect within sight of a motor except when work is done by qualified personnel so basically not residential but almost everyone else that has maintenance staff. On pipelines and in mines and utility systems it’s not unusual for a lockout to be miles away. No requirement to not be in a hazardous area either. A lot of electrical rooms and subs are accessible only to qualified personnel (electricians). Operators have no business being in outdoor overhead style sub yards.


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... very informative paul, but the NEC does require some type of lockable disc for motors, even for qualified personnel.
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Old 11-23-2018, 12:45 AM   #23
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... very informative paul, but the NEC does require some type of lockable disc for motors, even for qualified personnel.

I believe he is referring to "in sight" when saying "not" required.
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Old 11-23-2018, 10:10 AM   #24
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I believe he is referring to "in sight" when saying "not" required.
Correct but not obvious in some jurisdictions. That's strictly an NEC rule. In mines for instance NEC is not in force but they require lockout. It's not in force in utilities either, and locks are often not required (1910.269 has 4 different LOTO sections). Some utilities are very aggressive on LOTO procedures and others are tag only or basically just energized work only. I just play dumb with utilities and play along. Either way line of sight is not a rule. Visible break isn't either but due to inter-utility agreements they all think it's a regulation.

Since the NEC rule has an exemption worded so that all industrial plants qualify the "line of sight" rule is effectively only applicable to residential and some commercial, but once in a while you run into an industrial plant that gets tripped up by the screwy wording and makes secondary disconnects mandatory, and it never hurts to ask.

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Old 08-12-2019, 03:25 PM   #25
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I've never heard that it had to be with in sight.

How many times do you LOTO a breaker in a distribution panel to work on a panel elsewhere in a building?
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:27 PM   #26
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I've never heard that it had to be with in sight.



How many times do you LOTO a breaker in a distribution panel to work on a panel elsewhere in a building?


That’s a breaker for distribution. The rule is in 430. Only for the disconnect for a motor. In the case of an MCC for instance you might have to add a secondary disconnect. There is an exception for industrial plants that have their own maintenance crews.


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Old 08-12-2019, 07:32 PM   #27
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That’s a breaker for distribution. The rule is in 430. Only for the disconnect for a motor. In the case of an MCC for instance you might have to add a secondary disconnect. There is an exception for industrial plants that have their own maintenance crews.
Never heard that before.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:55 AM   #28
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With the LOTO one also has to conform to 70E and and also fill out a hazard assessment form. After spending an hour or so on paperwork you should be able to determine where and how to install the proper LOTO. For the commercial, industrial workers I would suggest keeping a LOTO log book to show you have a history of compliance just in case OSHA stops by.
Personally I prefer the old duct tape across the panel door as mentioned by others.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:08 AM   #29
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I've never heard that it had to be with in sight.

How many times do you LOTO a breaker in a distribution panel to work on a panel elsewhere in a building?
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I've never heard that it had to be with in sight.

How many times do you LOTO a breaker in a distribution panel to work on a panel elsewhere in a building?
First tesla, now @MechanicalDVR I see you have a fan too! Took them 9 months to find you too!
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:21 AM   #30
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First tesla, now @MechanicalDVR I see you have a fan too! Took them 9 months to find you too!
A man with Stevie Wonder's abilities could find me on this forum.
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:28 AM   #31
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A man with Stevie Wonder's abilities could find me on this forum.
I guess copying is the best form of flattery?
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Old 08-13-2019, 10:51 AM   #32
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I guess copying is the best form of flattery?
So they say right?
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:33 PM   #33
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TheNEC states that as long as it can be locked in the open position it doesn’t have to be within 50 feet or in site. Having disconnects located at the motors is a customer preference
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:38 AM   #34
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(b) In industrial installations, with written safety procedures, where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the equipment
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:28 PM   #35
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We do that when we are working on the 25kv side. Poco normally will assist as they get bored watching us struggle with a 20' hot stick.
When ever we did any maintenance work on 12kv systems we were always required by the company we worked for to ground the primary before we started any work. Many times there would be multiple locks on one tree but why trust that. Anyone could cut a lock and when you have large groups of people working on a system at various points your bound to end up with some genius trying to bypass safety.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:57 PM   #36
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With the LOTO one also has to conform to 70E and and also fill out a hazard assessment form. After spending an hour or so on paperwork you should be able to determine where and how to install the proper LOTO. For the commercial, industrial workers I would suggest keeping a LOTO log book to show you have a history of compliance just in case OSHA stops by.
Personally I prefer the old duct tape across the panel door as mentioned by others.
Good point about keeping a log. Sometimes you might be working on a machine and your shift ends and the night crew continues work. They would also place a lock on the tree as well. In some cases your lock might come off but then it would be replaced with a 2nd shift supervisors lock. This was usually done if the machine was critical to an operation. Everything was in the log book. Another requirement was to check for other forms of potential energy such as hydraulic or pneumatic. So in that case the mechanic would close valves and lock them out as well. Getting crushed is just as bad as getting shocked. An electrical disconnecting means is required to be visible and not more than 50 ft from the machine. Electrical circuits feeding lights and plugs for example do not fall under this rule. They can be locked out at the panel board.
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