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Old 07-20-2019, 11:27 AM   #21
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Please elaborate? I have the fuel drill/ driver and the fuel screwdriver. Both in my opinion have served me well.
The screwdriver is stupid and you should feel bad for using it. The only reason not to use the impact gun is for the normal chuck, which the screwdriver doesn't have.

I demand that you only use the impact and the normal drill, no more screwdriver.

Anyway, I actually have the original non-Fuel M12 drill and I am surprised at how well it works. I don't use it much, only when I need to chuck-up a drill bit or hole saw without the 1/4" hex shank. It works fine for what I use it for, because I know it is just a small drill. Any large hole saw or auger is M18 territory.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:30 AM   #22
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Agreed.

Thirty four years in business and I can assure you that company supplied tools typically never last as long as employee supplied tools. So, we hit a happy median. When hired, we inspect and inventory your tools. Come with a decent set of hand and battery operated tools and as long as your with us we'll repair or replace whatever you wear out while your with us. Lose it and it's on you.

We also have a tool and work boot program based on points for good reviews. Those who need or want to add to their tool list can use the points to purchase them. Since continued employment here requires you to get good reviews, everyone gets the points.

Those that don't, can sit on the bench with their $hit, entitlement attitudes and kick rocks.

Your company seems pretty good to work for which is more an exception than a rule these days.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:37 AM   #23
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The screwdriver is stupid and you should feel bad for using it. The only reason not to use the impact gun is for the normal chuck, which the screwdriver doesn't have.



I demand that you only use the impact and the normal drill, no more screwdriver.



Anyway, I actually have the original non-Fuel M12 drill and I am surprised at how well it works. I don't use it much, only when I need to chuck-up a drill bit or hole saw without the 1/4" hex shank. It works fine for what I use it for, because I know it is just a small drill. Any large hole saw or auger is M18 territory.
The non m12 drill runs at 500 rpm.
The fuel at 1700. All my bits have a ¼ shank so it's a no brainer for me.

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Old 07-20-2019, 11:42 AM   #24
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The non m12 drill runs at 500 rpm.
The fuel at 1700. All my bits have a ¼ shank so it's a no brainer for me.
It's a no brainer to use the Impact. Since all your bits have a 1/4" hex shank there is no need for the normal drill either. The screwdriver is stupid, and you must stop using it.
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Old 07-20-2019, 11:46 AM   #25
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Agreed. An impact gun is essential now and everyone brings their own, even apprentices, in my area.

An M12 Fuel impact gun and hackzall can get most jobs done. I wouldn't recommend the M12 Fuel drill/driver though, I think it's one of the worst tools that Milwaukee makes.

I have the hammer drill and love it. Don't abuse it but use it fairly often with good results.
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Old 07-20-2019, 12:50 PM   #26
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Agreed. An impact gun is essential now and everyone brings their own, even apprentices, in my area.

An M12 Fuel impact gun and hackzall can get most jobs done. I wouldn't recommend the M12 Fuel drill/driver though, I think it's one of the worst tools that Milwaukee makes.
I bought the M12 hammer drill driver and the M12 SDS and I wouldn't buy either again.
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Old 07-20-2019, 01:45 PM   #27
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I bought the M12 hammer drill driver and the M12 SDS and I wouldn't buy either again.
I bought both the 12s and the 18s. Almost all of the 12-volt stuff isnt used at all except for one guy that likes the hacksaw and everyone likes the little bandsaw.
I believe everyone should have an 18 volt Fuel Hammer Drill, impact and Sawzall. So much so, the company buys every employee those three except if you come out on a short call.
If someone needs a SDS, a mini porta band, a grinder, a lantern, or other tools, I have them charge it to the job they are on.

We don't seem to lose anything except batteries get mixed up when everyone comes in for an all-night job.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:00 PM   #28
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No, you didn't.

Making the company money to pay their bills (and then profit on top of that) is part of the employee's job. Everyone knows this. That's not why people go to work, they go to work to make money for themselves, which can only be done if they are making money for the company.
With that logic the employee should supply all the tools - hydraulic KO punches, holesaws, ladders... that way the company will make even more money which of course, as you and I are both well aware, whenever a company makes more money the employees always get it back in their paychecks.


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It's not a slippery slope. There is already an arbitrary line somewhere.

The thing that you don't realize is that most people feel comfortable putting that line after smaller battery tools. And I am talking about union members too.

That arbitrary line isn't exactly arbitrary - unions have a solid line that keeps the issue clear. In the nonunion sector an employee providing their own electric power drill or sawzall or porta band would be unheard of - how did that line skew to include those power tools just because the power comes from a battery instead of a laundry drop?
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:04 PM   #29
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I bought the M12 hammer drill driver and the M12 SDS and I wouldn't buy either again.
Why is that?

I know guys with the SDS and they love it.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:08 PM   #30
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I bought both the 12s and the 18s. Almost all of the 12-volt stuff isnt used at all except for one guy that likes the hacksaw and everyone likes the little bandsaw.
I believe everyone should have an 18 volt Fuel Hammer Drill, impact and Sawzall. So much so, the company buys every employee those three except if you come out on a short call.
If someone needs a SDS, a mini porta band, a grinder, a lantern, or other tools, I have them charge it to the job they are on.

We don't seem to lose anything except batteries get mixed up when everyone comes in for an all-night job.
I'm sure not working like you guys do these days but I use the M12 impact and hammer drill constantly.

The M18 impact gets used for auto and tractor stuff with sockets exclusively. The M18 drill hasn't been out of the case this year more than once for a few large hole saws.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:28 PM   #31
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With that logic the employee should supply all the tools
No, not at all. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that, and you know it.

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That arbitrary line isn't exactly arbitrary
It's definitely arbitrary.
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unions have a solid line that keeps the issue clear.
Bologna! There is no solid line, it changes in each local. I had people in local 164 tell me how bad local 102 was because the Roto split is on our tool list, and in 164 the contractor had to supply it.

Their line was before the Rotosplit. You see how that line is completely arbitrary??

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In the nonunion sector an employee providing their own electric power drill or sawzall or porta band would be unheard of - how did that line skew to include those power tools just because the power comes from a battery instead of a laundry drop?
That is not unheard of, as usual you show how far out of reality your thinking is. There is MUCH more to this world than what you hear at your union meetings.

No normal person thinks it is unreasonable for an employer to require their employees to provide basic battery tools. I'm glad that the horrible mentality you brainwashed old farts have will die off soon.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:31 PM   #32
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Why is that?

I know guys with the SDS and they love it.
The M12 SDS rotary hammer has completely replaced my Hilti TE-7C, which is what I bought in lieu of the infamous Bosch Bulldog. I love it, it works great and takes care of everything up until I need to pull out my Hilti TE-60.
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Old 07-20-2019, 03:42 PM   #33
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The M12 SDS rotary hammer has completely replaced my Hilti TE-7C, which is what I bought in lieu of the infamous Bosch Bulldog. I love it, it works great and takes care of everything up until I need to pull out my Hilti TE-60.
Exactly, I have heard the same thing from every guy I've worked with or around when I pull out the Bulldog.

I have the M18 sds but it's just as big and clumpy as the bulldog.

If I decide to open a new business I will get the M12 SDS in a heartbeat.
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Old 07-20-2019, 03:53 PM   #34
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I bought the M12 hammer drill driver and the M12 SDS and I wouldn't buy either again.
I respect your posts splatz... why don't like the m12 drill and sds?

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Old 07-20-2019, 04:25 PM   #35
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I respect your posts splatz... why don't like the m12 drill and sds?
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Why is that?

I know guys with the SDS and they love it.
I bought the M12 hammer drill / driver & impact kit. The impact doea a lot for it's small size but the drill-driver absolutely sucks for masonry. All I wanted it to do is tapcoms and 1/4" anchors and it sucks for that.

The M12 SDS is a good tool, and it drives holes for tapcons and 1/4" anchors faster than the M18 hammer drill / driver, but it is not that much lighter than the M18 SDS and the M18 is far faster. I've found I'd rather carry a little more weight and blast them in fast than carry a little less weight and spend more time leaning on the drill.

So I'd buy the M18 hammer drill / driver kit and the M12 impact, and the M18 SDS.

I also have an M12 flood light, I'd buy that again, and of course the M12 bandsaw, greatest power tool ever made.

It was very smart of Milwaukee to make chargers that charge both M12 and M18.

The truth is with the small 18V battery, the M18 tools are compact enough that in many cases I don't care to bother with the M12. I'd not bother with the M12 circular saw or hackzall.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:08 PM   #36
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I bought the M12 hammer drill / driver & impact kit. The impact doea a lot for it's small size but the drill-driver absolutely sucks for masonry. All I wanted it to do is tapcoms and 1/4" anchors and it sucks for that.

The M12 SDS is a good tool, and it drives holes for tapcons and 1/4" anchors faster than the M18 hammer drill / driver, but it is not that much lighter than the M18 SDS and the M18 is far faster. I've found I'd rather carry a little more weight and blast them in fast than carry a little less weight and spend more time leaning on the drill.

So I'd buy the M18 hammer drill / driver kit and the M12 impact, and the M18 SDS.

I also have an M12 flood light, I'd buy that again, and of course the M12 bandsaw, greatest power tool ever made.

It was very smart of Milwaukee to make chargers that charge both M12 and M18.

The truth is with the small 18V battery, the M18 tools are compact enough that in many cases I don't care to bother with the M12. I'd not bother with the M12 circular saw or hackzall.

What bits are you using in your hammer drill and in the SDS?

I use the gold coated Hilti bits in the drill and Bosch SDS with great success.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:16 PM   #37
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What bits are you using in your hammer drill and in the SDS?

I use the gold coated Hilti bits in the drill and Bosch SDS with great success.
Bosch is my go-to brand for masonry bits, I have some Hilti here and there too but not the gold, Hilti is getting hard to find locally and of course ridiculously expensive.

I have a lot of BIG Dewalt masonry bits too, they're much better than I expected them to be.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:44 PM   #38
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You guys just passed the hiring test.
You would be perfect sitting around a local open-air bar in the keys, ice in your beer, bull****ting each other about tools.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:58 PM   #39
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No, not at all. It doesn't make any sense for you to say that, and you know it.

Makes perfect sense. It all comes down to principals. For a long time battery drills and impact guns have been considered the employee's responsibility in the nonunion sector. No wonder the 2 are typically sold as a kit. Now they're demanding sawzalls as well.



I'm curious if a residential spark has to supply his own battery hole hawg and right angle hawg as well?



Quote:

It's definitely arbitrary. Bologna! There is no solid line, it changes in each local. I had people in local 164 tell me how bad local 102 was because the Roto split is on our tool list, and in 164 the contractor had to supply it.
Now you're grasping at straws. A rotosplit really? We're talking power tools here.
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That is not unheard of, as usual you show how far out of reality your thinking is. There is MUCH more to this world than what you hear at your union meetings.
Much more like what? Like the propensity for business to externalize liabilities and internalize profits?



You said:
Quote:
Making the company money to pay their bills (and then profit on top of that) is part of the employee's job. Everyone knows this. That's not why people go to work, they go to work to make money for themselves, which can only be done if they are making money for the company.
Nonunion employees have been providing drills since the 80's and impact guns shortly thereafter. My response to CoolWill was where does the slippery slope end? This isn't about the employee - employer relationship. An employee makes money for the company whether the battery tools are self supplied or company supplied.
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No normal person thinks it is unreasonable for an employer to require their employees to provide basic battery tools.
Again you miss the point. How many "basic battery tools?"


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I'm glad that the horrible mentality you brainwashed old farts have will die off soon.
Yes, let's make way for the new mentality: "Employees are to provide basic battery operated impact guns, drills, sawzalls (porta-band acceptable) grinder, hole hawg, right angle hole hawg, batteries and charger.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:32 PM   #40
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Makes perfect sense. It all comes down to principals. For a long time battery drills and impact guns have been considered the employee's responsibility in the nonunion sector. No wonder the 2 are typically sold as a kit. Now they're demanding sawzalls as well.
Good.
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Now you're grasping at straws. A rotosplit really? We're talking power tools here.
No, I am not grasping at straws. We are speaking about the arbitrary line, which you said isn't that arbitrary because the unions have a solid line.

I explained that the unions do not have a solid line, it is a completely arbitrary line. That is a simple fact. No two unions have the same tool list, and each union calls the other union crappy for requiring tools. It's a giant game of little boys trying to see how far they can push the contractor before their union blows up into oblivion.
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My response to CoolWill was where does the slippery slope end?
And my response to you was that it is not a slippery slope. The arbitrary line is still there, just in a slightly different position. Small battery tools are very cheap and used much more often than they used to be, they have become normal for each person to have one, and providing their own is very reasonable.

Quote:
Again you miss the point. How many "basic battery tools?"
A reasonable amount. The same question applies to how many hand tools. You are required to carry a small level, but not a 4' level, right? If I had your blatantly stupid mentality, I would say how they can't make us provide a small level because it is a slippery slope to them making us provide 6' levels.

Quote:
Yes, let's make way for the new mentality: "Employees are to provide basic battery operated impact guns, drills, sawzalls (porta-band acceptable) grinder, hole hawg, right angle hole hawg, batteries and charger.
Hyperbole like this gets you no where, it simply makes you look bad, and makes unions look bad as well.
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